Originally posted by cbcarolyn
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Service Record for The Royal Engineers 1891? finding Richard Kean b Manchester 1860
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Carolyn
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Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
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I kind of think that you must be on the right track, and guess you will never prove it, as it won't be 'recorded' anywhere that he morphed into someone else.Carolyn
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An astonishing number of Chelsea Pensioners changed their names for unknown reasons. It just seems to have been fairly common in Victorian times.
No need to do anything legal, no deed polls or anything, you just started calling yourself something else...
It makes it very tricky for descendants to unravel, but I'm sure that they thought that nobody ever would!
Holly.
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aww, does that tie up with the workhouse dates found?Carolyn
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Which really makes me think that the Richard Kean born Manchester in 1860 can’t have been the same man as my Grandfather William James Wilson, born Manchester in 1860.
Richard Kean seems to have had a drink problem and neglected and I’ll treated his family.
My Grandfather ran a successful business in Swansea from 1893 - 1930, supported his wife and family, and stayed with his wife from their marriage in 1893 until her death in 1934. He died in 1937.
Richard Kean‘s death remains unresolved, although there is a death in Kobe, Japan of a Richard Kean born at approx the right timescale.
Holly.
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Originally posted by PhotoFamily View PostMy RE ancestor was serving about the time that yours was born.
Attestation papers/Chelsea Pensioners papers are on (and indexed on) FindMyPast. But, if like my ancestor, yours did not serve until pension (21 years, I believe), then his attestation papers were probably not preserved.
I was successful hiring a researcher to find his payroll entries at Kew. As I recall, REs are especially difficult because they didn't stay with one regiment.
Whoever said Seek and Ye shall find was not a genealogist.
David
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Originally posted by grumpy View Post
As far as am I aware attestation papers were never disposed of as they are visible evidence of a contract
annswabey may be able to speak to this better?
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Thanks PhotoFamily. WW1 service records (lots of records destroyed) and WW2 service records (might not be possible to find if a different date of birth or alias was given). Earlier records may not have survived, and, as I've already said, men didn't necessarily serve in a local regiment. I'm not fishing for work, but try to help generally, but whatever I say is ignored. Don't think I'll bother any moreThe National Archives, Kew – Research Service Offered
Contact me via PM on Family Tree Forum or via my personal website - www.militaryandfamilyresearch.co.uk
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Originally posted by annswabey View PostIt's not true to say that in order for service records to have survived, a man had to have served for 20 years
Generally service records were retained for those who received an Army pension (although there are lots of men who fit this category whose records didn't survive). Pensions could have been granted for long service, but also for disability or illness, so a man may have only served for a shorter period to qualify. I've been to the National Archives a number of times since they reopened, and the general rule, apart from one series of records, is that they won't supply copies at the moment. The record you mentioned, where there is a small slip covering another page, is common. It doesn't necessarily mean that the page behind it is obscured. Even on a visit to the National Archives, you have to jump through hoops to be allowed to see an original record, as they just argue that they are online. Its worth searching the online service records for WW1 - there are some much earlier service records includedCarolyn
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Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
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This is a very long thread so apologies if I’ve missed/misunderstood anything, but a few observations:
The Richard Kean who went into the Manchester (Withington) workhouse 1892/3 was in his 60’s & from Hulme, so is not the Richard born c1860. He died 8 Jan 1894 in Hulme, aged 62.
I think the Richard Kean in Warrington mentioned in the newspaper article was born c1854 Warrington and was the son of the late Alderman Richard Kean of Warrington, who died in 1888. This Richard Kean (Jr) married Maria Woodhouse in 1873, Warrington.
The 1890 newspaper article mentions that the Richard Kean who deserted his family “had good work in connection with the election of Guardians” which in no way describes a painter, however, Alderman Kean had been a member of the Warrington Board of Guardians and his son Richard was a clerk/bookkeeper. This Richard (Jr) had also been charged with being drunk & assaulting his wife Maria in 1888 (see St. Helens Examiner 14 April 1888). He was also charged in 1895 - when he was again drunk - and was sent to prison for one month’s hard labour. Maria said she had had “no comfort from him for years”, and was granted a separation order.
This puts the Richard Kean born Manchester back into the frame, and the series of events suggested by Vera at post #77 remain a good possibility. If Mary Ann Kean's 1891 death certificate hasn't been purchased yet then I think it might be worthwhile, as it should give the name & possibly the occupation of her husband. The address & informant may also be helpful.
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Following on from the above, in 1881 a Richard Kean was on the Manchester rate books at 7 Gardner Street, Hulme, which was also his address on the 1881 census.
A Richard Kean was then on the Manchester Rate Books at 135 Cobden Street, Manchester 1886 - 1888. By 1889 it was James Moore (131,133 & 135), and by 1890 William Walker had taken over.
On the 1886 attestation for Richard Kean into the 3rd Manchester Regiment (Militia) his address was given as 6 Harper Street, Brooks Bar, Manchester, with his father ‘confirming’ that he (Richard Jr) had lived there for 7 years 4 months, and was unmarried. This was clearly untrue, as Richard had married Mary Ann Young in 1880 and was living at Gardner Street in 1881.
Richard Jr’s disappearance from the rate books after 1888 suggests that this may be when he left the Militia and joined the regular army (RE’s). Although there has been talk of desertion, he may only have signed on for 3 years with the colours so may well have served his time by 1892. If that was the case then he would still have been liable to serve a further period in the Reserves, but I very much doubt they’d be looking too hard for him. He was possibly more concerned about being liable for the costs of supporting his daughters (son Joseph had died shortly after birth).
The DNA links to the family of Richard Kean, his absolute disappearance after 1891 and the subsequent appearance of William James Wilson does point to them being the same person. Again, I think the death certificate for Mary Ann Kean is vital in the search for further clues.
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The DNA riddle should be solvable too I guess, something I have no knowledge on, but if people have DNA matches that are Keans then that bit must be true, they just have no built family tree (or big/wide enough) to find the link.Carolyn
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Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
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Originally posted by teasie View PostThis is a very long thread so apologies if I’ve missed/misunderstood anything, but a few observations:
The Richard Kean who went into the Manchester (Withington) workhouse 1892/3 was in his 60’s & from Hulme, so is not the Richard born c1860. He died 8 Jan 1894 in Hulme, aged 62.
I think the Richard Kean in Warrington mentioned in the newspaper article was born c1854 Warrington and was the son of the late Alderman Richard Kean of Warrington, who died in 1888. This Richard Kean (Jr) married Maria Woodhouse in 1873, Warrington.
The 1890 newspaper article mentions that the Richard Kean who deserted his family “had good work in connection with the election of Guardians” which in no way describes a painter, however, Alderman Kean had been a member of the Warrington Board of Guardians and his son Richard was a clerk/bookkeeper. This Richard (Jr) had also been charged with being drunk & assaulting his wife Maria in 1888 (see St. Helens Examiner 14 April 1888). He was also charged in 1895 - when he was again drunk - and was sent to prison for one month’s hard labour. Maria said she had had “no comfort from him for years”, and was granted a separation order.
This puts the Richard Kean born Manchester back into the frame, and the series of events suggested by Vera at post #77 remain a good possibility. If Mary Ann Kean's 1891 death certificate hasn't been purchased yet then I think it might be worthwhile, as it should give the name & possibly the occupation of her husband. The address & informant may also be helpful.
Holly - I am sure we traced the children - Did all 3 children die childless? So link is via Richards siblings.Carolyn
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Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
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Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
I would have to re read the thread, but I thought the workhouse record was for the children and it was the grandfather that put them in there, will have to revisit.I’ve now found 3 Admissions for Richard Kean to The Manchester Workhouse (Withington) between 1891 and 1893. If I’m reading it correctly, it looks like he Died in The Workhouse in January 1893:-(
And so Richard Kean, born Manchester 1860, wasn’t my Grandfather
As Richard Kean, born1860 seems to die in Withington Workhouse in 1893,he can’t have been the same person as my Grandfather William James Wilson, who married my grandmother Margaret Rees in Swansea in June 1893.
I also don't think it was proved that the two girls died, but I'd need to read back too. I think there was a possible death for Catherine in Burnley 1913, but I don't think Mary Agnes has been traced.
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Originally posted by teasie View Post
There were workhouse records for the two girls being placed there by their grandfather, but earlier in the thread Holly said - and -
The admissions, burial & death registrations show he was actually in his 60's, so definitely NOT the Richard born c1860. He's also not the man in Warrington, so there's still a good chance that Richard Kean bc1860 Manchester actually IS William James Wilson.
I also don't think it was proved that the two girls died, but I'd need to read back too. I think there was a possible death for Catherine in Burnley 1913, but I don't think Mary Agnes has been traced.
I will have to re read, I do remember finding one of the girls, but not how far we got.
Carolyn
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Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff
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Looking back over the thread this is where it kind of ended with regard to Richard Kean b 1860 and also being the same person as William James Wilson due to DNA matches
Mary Agnes was never traced (Richard Keans Daughter)
Death cert of wife Mary never ordered
Catherine was traced and died childless, her marriage in USA said Richard as father in 1911, but she may not have a clue where or who he was. She died in the UK
DNA matches to the descendants of Lucy Kean, Richard Kean and Patrick Butler and Jane Howard. Thomas and John Kean, (brothers of Richard Kean).
Richard Kean had many siblings so each could be looked at - I know many were looked at.
Richard Kean is possibly the one in Kent in 1891
The first sighting of the new name of William James Wilson is 1901 in Wales
Carolyn
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Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff
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