Service Record for The Royal Engineers 1891? finding Richard Kean b Manchester 1860

[teasie]

In 1886 Richard Kean signs up for the Manchester Regiment. Records on Ancestry, already on here.

Mary Ann Kean’s Death Certificate in January 1891 shows that Richard Kean is a Sapper in the Royal Engineers. On the 1891 Census he’s at Cheriton Barracks in Kent, a Sapper in the Royal Engineers.

In June 1893 my Grandfather William James Wilson, Occupation Housepainter, married my Grandmother Margaret Rees in Swansea.

There’s a Richard Kean in the Royal Engineers on the Medal Rolls for WW1. No age given.
If this is the same man, then he can’t be my Grandfather.

This is what I’m trying to establish.

It seems unlikely, as the man on the medal rolls was previously in the Army Service Corps and the Training Reserve, ie he was transferred into the Royal Engineers during the course of the war.

He also wasn't entitled to the 1914/15 star, meaning he didn't serve in a theatre of war before 1916. My feeling is that this is someone who joined around the time of conscription.

[Holly]

Many thanks teasie, that’s very helpful.

[cbcarolyn]

The most likely thing to me is that he deserted from the Royal Engineers after the 1891 Census and moved to Swansea for anonymity and a fresh start?

Holly.

it certainly seems plausible, but not necessarily fell out with his family, so there maybe a reference somewhere.

[teasie]

The most likely thing to me is that he deserted from the Royal Engineers after the 1891 Census and moved to Swansea for anonymity and a fresh start?

Depending on when he enlisted & how long for, he may simply have served his time rather than deserted, for example if he'd signed up for 3 years with the colours (regular army) and 9 years in the reserves. Changing his name and moving away would be one way to avoid the time in the reserves bit !

Another thing to bear in mind is that if his daughters were in the workhouse / industrial school then he would have been expected to contribute towards the costs. Another reason to disappear perhaps?

I've been looking for any poor law records that might help, but they're very thin on the ground and most of what survives is already on FmP.

[Holly]

All that I can find is that the Informant was Richard Kean, Grandfather on the Admission Record.
I can’t find any Discharge Records.

Holly.

[teasie]

The record on FmP isnt technically the admission record, its the Creed Register, and the column to the far right shows a discharge date of 10 Mar 1891.

I was hoping to find something like a minute book that might have detailed who - if anyone - was being pursued for payment towards the two girls upkeep.

The available records for the Chorlton Union are detailed on gmlives, but there doesn't seem to be anything useful:

(EDITED to delete link to gmlives as not working properly)

[Holly]

Many thanks for looking teasie, much appreciated.

It’s curious why the girls were put in the Workhouse, and I would have thought that as a serving soldier, Richard Kean would have had to contribute to their upkeep?

It’s also frustrating that it doesn’t seem possible to trace them after this.

Holly.

[cbcarolyn]

it is likely that Catherine was traced.

in Bury in 1901 and married in USA and possibly died in 1913.

I think all the info is on this thread somewhere.

Would be nice if the sisters stuck together

[Holly]

Yes, Catherine Kean can be traced to Massachusetts, but I lost track of Mary Agnes, sadly.

[cbcarolyn]

if her death is correct in Burnley is correct her death cert might have something useful. I can't remember if we found out who she was visiting now.

[Holly]

I think it might have been husband Herbert Johnson’s family?

I’ll have to check my notes, - I’ve been trying to find my Grandfather for so long thatI sometimes lose track of things I’ve already looked at!

[teasie]

Many thanks for looking teasie, much appreciated.

It’s curious why the girls were put in the Workhouse, and I would have thought that as a serving soldier, Richard Kean would have had to contribute to their upkeep?

It’s also frustrating that it doesn’t seem possible to trace them after this.

Holly.

They will have been put in the workhouse & then onto the industrial school as their mother had died, their father was in the army, and presumably no-one else in the family was able to look after them.

While he was serving then yes, it would seem likely that he would have had to pay something and couldn't have done much about it, but once his time 'with the colours' was up then all he had to do was disappear.....

All speculation of course, but it would fit with changing his name and appearing in a completely different town.

[Holly]

Many thanks for your input teasie.

Holly.

[cbcarolyn]

wouldn't it be good if we could see William with an ex RE, Wales seems so random, almost as if he went with someone. Mind you he could have changed name too!

[Holly]

It seems unlikely, as the man on the medal rolls was previously in the Army Service Corps and the Training Reserve, ie he was transferred into the Royal Engineers during the course of the war.

He also wasn't entitled to the 1914/15 star, meaning he didn't serve in a theatre of war before 1916. My feeling is that this is someone who joined around the time of conscription.

I’m wondering if the Richard Kean, Royal Engineers, who was Court-martialled in Chatham in 1904 was the same man who was later on the medal rolls for WW1?

I’ve now obtained this Service Record for this Richard Kean and ascertained that he’s the man who died in Birkenhead in 1931.

Holly.

[Holly]

if her death is correct in Burnley is correct her death cert might have something useful. I can't remember if we found out who she was visiting now.

I’ve obtained the PDF Death Certificate for the Catherine Johnson in Burnley in 1913, but I don’t think it’s the right Catherine Johnson ? The Informant is Herbert Johnson, living in Nelson and working as a Cotton Weaver. And so perhaps Catherine Johnson, nee Kean remained in the USA?

[Darksecretz]

There is another William James Wilson, (Born 1865, Kent) on the 1891 Census for Swansea.

That William James Wilson Married Mary Shill and they have a child called 'William Havelock Wilson'. That child Dies in Infancy.

William James Wilson and Margaret Rees, (my Grandparents) Marry, and have a child called 'William Havelock Wilson (1894 - 1974).

My thought is that Richard Kean went AWOL, (or deserted) from the Royal Engineers. He knew the 'other' William James Wilson from Kent, and also went to Swansea...

What if William James Wilson that married Mary Shill is the same person as William James Wilson that married Margaret Rees?? seems awfully creepy to have two children with identical names born to two different families, but both have WJW in common.

When and where was Mary Agnes born please. I can't seem to see it on the thread.

[Holly]

Mary Agnes Kean was born 28th December 1881 to Richard Kean and Mary Ann Kean, nee Young in Hulme, Manchester.

Baptised at St Wilfred’s RC Church, Hulme 1st January 1882.

I can definitely rule out the William James Wilson who marries Mary Shill. I have the Marriage Certificate, his WW1 Service Record, his admittance to a Lunatic Asylum and his Death Entry.

[Darksecretz]

nope that won't be right.

I have tracked William/Mary and noted that their son was William Henry Wilson b.1890 and seems to have lived until 1935 if I have the right one. Or did they have another child called William? yet on his military papers [WJW] he doesn't mention William... how odd. Also states that WJW was born in Cumberland.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1114&h=868638&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=62105&_gl=1*11ylgmp*_gcl_au*MTI0OTQ3NDk3Ny4xNjg1MTc2NTgz*_ga*OTUyNTI4MjcyLjE2ODUxNzY1ODM.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MDkwY2VhNjAtZjBlZi00NzA1LWIwN2MtMjg4ZjYxZDQyMDYxLjEzMi4xLjE2OTAyODQ1OTYuMzkuMC4w

[Holly]

The eldest child of William James Wilson and Mary Shill was William Havelock Wilson, but according to my notes, died as a baby.

I would imagine that the Havelock Wilson name was a tribute to Joseph Havelock Wilson, who was the Leader of the Seaman’s Union at that time.