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Service Record for The Royal Engineers 1891? finding Richard Kean b Manchester 1860

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  • Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
    Looking back over the thread this is where it kind of ended with regard to Richard Kean b 1860 and also being the same person as William James Wilson due to DNA matches

    Mary Agnes was never traced (Richard Keans Daughter)
    Death cert of wife Mary never ordered
    Catherine was traced and died childless, her marriage in USA said Richard as father in 1911, but she may not have a clue where or who he was. She died in the UK
    DNA matches to the descendants of Lucy Kean, Richard Kean and Patrick Butler and Jane Howard. Thomas and John Kean, (brothers of Richard Kean).
    Richard Kean had many siblings so each could be looked at - I know many were looked at.
    Richard Kean is possibly the one in Kent in 1891
    The first sighting of the new name of William James Wilson is 1901 in Wales
    Agreed, except the death of Catherine was assumed to be the right one but not proved via a certificate, and the first sighting of William James Wilson is his marriage to Holly's Grandmother, Margaret Rees, in 1893, Swansea

    Comment


    • Many thanks for all the contributions, much appreciated.

      I’ve had a break from this research for a while, but am now going over my notes again.

      Carolyn, the first sighting of William James Wilson is in June 1893 when he married my Grandmother Margaret Rees in Swansea.

      Since my last Posts, I’ve had more Kean and Butler DNA matches, which makes it even more likely that I’m descended from Richard Kean (Senior) and Frances Butler.

      Holly.

      Comment


      • I have new DNA matches to the descendants of Thomas Kean, born 1858.

        Also to the descendants of Patrick Butler and Mary Howard.

        Holly.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Holly View Post
          I have new DNA matches to the descendants of Thomas Kean, born 1858.

          Also to the descendants of Patrick Butler and Mary Howard.

          Holly.
          are they relatives of Richard Kean
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

          Comment


          • Yes, one is the Great Granddaughter of Thomas Kean, born 1858, who was the brother of Richard Kean. My DNA match to her is 49cMs, but my daughter’s DNA match to her is 110cMs.
            She also matches to my sister and my two paternal 1st cousins.
            The two new Butler DNA matches that I have are to the Great Granddaughters of Patrick Butler. I match to one at 74cMs and 24cMs. They also match everyone on my paternal side who has tested.

            Holly.
            Last edited by Holly; 16-05-22, 20:03.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Holly View Post
              My DNA match to her is 49cMs, but my daughter’s DNA match to her is 110cMs.
              IMO, you need to look for another common ancestral line between your daughter and the new match, one that you do not share.
              Last edited by PhotoFamily; 16-05-22, 22:47.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Holly View Post
                Yes, one is the Great Granddaughter of Thomas Kean, born 1858, who was the brother of Richard Kean. My DNA match to her is 49cMs, but my daughter’s DNA match to her is 110cMs.
                She also matches to my sister and my two paternal 1st cousins.
                The two new Butler DNA matches that I have are to the Great Granddaughters of Patrick Butler. I match to one at 74cMs and 24cMs. They also match everyone on my paternal side who has tested.

                Holly.
                you kind of think Richard must be yours then, unless there is some odd sibling we never found. Such a shame the children never had descendants. It sounds like the DNA matches all trace back to Richard now, as I seem to remember some of the matches you didn't have their tree.

                I think I would still get the death cert of the mother Mary, to see if husband made an appearance in it, and what he was down as. and would also get the death cert of daughter Catherine, it maybe not her, and we could search again.
                Last edited by cbcarolyn; 17-05-22, 00:35.
                Carolyn
                Family Tree site

                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                Comment


                • Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post

                  IMO, you need to look for another common ancestral line between your daughter and the new match, one that you do not share.
                  I think that the issue is that DNA is randomly assigned, and within families, different members will inherit differing amounts.

                  My daughter seems to have inherited more Butler DNA than I have, she has higher matches to them generally than I do. Whereas I seem to have higher Kean DNA matches.

                  Because my sister and paternal 1st cousins have also tested, I can see how amounts of DNA shared vary.

                  Holly.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post

                    you kind of think Richard must be yours then, unless there is some odd sibling we never found. Such a shame the children never had descendants. It sounds like the DNA matches all trace back to Richard now, as I seem to remember some of the matches you didn't have their tree.

                    I think I would still get the death cert of the mother Mary, to see if husband made an appearance in it, and what he was down as. and would also get the death cert of daughter Catherine, it maybe not her, and we could search again.
                    There is a Death Entry in Burnley in 1917 which might possibly be Catherine, I’ll see if I can find the details.

                    There’s also this Entry:

                    NameCatherine JohnsonDeath Date1917Death Placecity, Massachusetts, USAIndex Volume NumberIndex Volume NumberReference NumberReference NumberHousehold members

                    I can’t view the actual Record, because I don’t have Worldwide access.

                    Were it not for DNA I would still be fruitlessly pursuing a William James Wilson, born Manchester 1860. He doesn’t seem to exist, whereas I have all of these Kean and Butler DNA matches. My highest DNA matches are to the descendants of Thomas Kean and John Kean.
                    Last edited by Holly; 17-05-22, 11:24.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
                      Capture Johnson fmp death.JPG A possible for Catherine

                      https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource

                      Burnley reg (for Nelson)from whence Herbert came on manifest 12/07/1913

                      Catherine Johnson b 1885
                      Died 2nd q 1913 aged 28

                      This is a death announcement for Burnley at the hospital

                      Express and Advertiser
                      BMD Burnley
                      23rd May 1913 Catherine Johnson
                      At the hospital

                      Vera
                      this was where we had got to with regard to Catherine, no guarantee its her, but ages tie up, and she didn't get on the boat back to USA.

                      Herbert def travelled back on his own, I think the details are in the posts, they were both crossed out on manifest, and then he travelled back on his own. So likely she died in 1913.
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                        there is a death in 1891

                        Name: Mary Ann Kean
                        Estimated birth year: abt 1862
                        Registration Year: 1891
                        Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
                        Age at Death: 29
                        Registration district: Chorlton

                        https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...97/edit/record
                        I think this was the death for Mary Ann Young
                        Carolyn
                        Family Tree site

                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                        Comment


                        • the certs might give you some hints about Richard, and where they thought he had gone.
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Holly View Post

                            I think that the issue is that DNA is randomly assigned, and within families, different members will inherit differing amounts.

                            My daughter seems to have inherited more Butler DNA than I have, she has higher matches to them generally than I do. Whereas I seem to have higher Kean DNA matches.

                            Because my sister and paternal 1st cousins have also tested, I can see how amounts of DNA shared vary.

                            Holly.
                            I don't know anything about DNA, but if there are matches, then there must be reason, even if not that big, and you have no other reason to match to them.
                            Carolyn
                            Family Tree site

                            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Holly View Post

                              I think that the issue is that DNA is randomly assigned, and within families, different members will inherit differing amounts.

                              My daughter seems to have inherited more Butler DNA than I have, she has higher matches to them generally than I do. Whereas I seem to have higher Kean DNA matches.

                              Because my sister and paternal 1st cousins have also tested, I can see how amounts of DNA shared vary.

                              Holly.
                              she won't have more centimorgans in common with someone than you do, unless she inherited matching DNA from her father too....she can only inherit DNA you yourself have. so if you only have 49cms, she can only inherit that or less....if she has 110cms, that means she has more DNA in common with that match than you do, implying she has another link that isn't you to this match.

                              as you said everyone inherits DNA at random, roughly but not strictly 50% from each parent. your mother and siblings may share more DNA with someone than you do. but your children will only inherit what you have. which means your dau will have exactly as much as you have or less. she can't inherit more than you have, unless her father also matches some DNA with these matches.

                              photofamily is right, you should investigate other connections to this family.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Holly View Post
                                I have fairly high DNA Matches to a Kean family in Woodstock, Ontario, Canada. I match to the Father, Nephew and Grandson.

                                The only link that I have managed to work out is that Thomas Kean, Born Manchester 1860 married Mary Ann Elizabeth KAY.

                                Also, Mary Ann Elizabeth Kay's sister, Sarah Hannah Kay, married John Kean, Born Manchester 1866.

                                Mary Ann and Sarah Hannah Kay's Parents were Samuel James KAY and Sarah KAY.

                                At some stage, Thomas and Mary Ann Kean must have emigrated to Canada. I haven't found out when...

                                Holly.
                                just been re reading the thread, have you managed to build trees and trace back the matches? Mary Agnes Kean not in any?
                                Carolyn
                                Family Tree site

                                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Holly View Post
                                  Yes, one is the Great Granddaughter of Thomas Kean, born 1858, who was the brother of Richard Kean. My DNA match to her is 49cMs, but my daughter’s DNA match to her is 110cMs.
                                  She also matches to my sister and my two paternal 1st cousins.
                                  The two new Butler DNA matches that I have are to the Great Granddaughters of Patrick Butler. I match to one at 74cMs and 24cMs. They also match everyone on my paternal side who has tested.

                                  Holly.
                                  do you have Patrick Butlers tree?
                                  Carolyn
                                  Family Tree site

                                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                  Comment


                                  • Kylejustin, I’ve checked my husband’s Test, and he has a few very low cMs matches to Butler’s.

                                    No links that I can see at all…

                                    I have lots of shared matches with my late Mother where I have a higher match than she does to the same person though.

                                    Holly.

                                    Comment


                                    • Carolyn, there are lots of Public Trees on Ancestry that have Patrick Butler on. I don’t know if this link will work, but this is one example.



                                      But Mary Agnes Kean is very elusive…

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Holly View Post
                                        Carolyn, there are lots of Public Trees on Ancestry that have Patrick Butler on. I don’t know if this link will work, but this is one example.

                                        https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tr...72219762/facts

                                        But Mary Agnes Kean is very elusive…
                                        so these are not anything at all to do with the Keans.

                                        what about the Ontario link do you have those trees, are they part of the Keans?

                                        it looks as though you have lots of puzzle pieces, just need to start joining them up and building trees and messaging people.
                                        Last edited by cbcarolyn; 18-05-22, 14:29.
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment


                                        • The link between the Butler’s and the Kean’s is that Richard Kean (1832 - 1894) married Frances Butler (1833 - 1873) in 1853.

                                          Frances Butler was the daughter of Patrick Butler and Jane Howard.

                                          And so that must be why I have DNA matches to both sets of descendants.

                                          Holly.

                                          Comment

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