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Service Record for The Royal Engineers 1891? finding Richard Kean b Manchester 1860

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  • these are the 2 trees that you have matches to? the second one has Lucy Kean that could be Richard Keans niece? daughter of John Kean?
    Carolyn
    Family Tree site

    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

    Comment


    • Yes, that’s right.
      Sorry, I haven’t logged in for a while, PC issues!

      I have DNA matches to the descendants of Lucy Kean, Richard Kean and Patrick Butler and Jane Howard.

      Holly.

      Comment


      • I kind of think that you must be on the right track, and guess you will never prove it, as it won't be 'recorded' anywhere that he morphed into someone else.
        Carolyn
        Family Tree site

        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

        Comment


        • An astonishing number of Chelsea Pensioners changed their names for unknown reasons. It just seems to have been fairly common in Victorian times.

          No need to do anything legal, no deed polls or anything, you just started calling yourself something else...

          It makes it very tricky for descendants to unravel, but I'm sure that they thought that nobody ever would!

          Holly.

          Comment


          • I haven’t looked at this for a while, it found this sad Newspaper Article recently:

            Holly.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • aww, does that tie up with the workhouse dates found?
              Carolyn
              Family Tree site

              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

              Comment


              • Which really makes me think that the Richard Kean born Manchester in 1860 can’t have been the same man as my Grandfather William James Wilson, born Manchester in 1860.

                Richard Kean seems to have had a drink problem and neglected and I’ll treated his family.

                My Grandfather ran a successful business in Swansea from 1893 - 1930, supported his wife and family, and stayed with his wife from their marriage in 1893 until her death in 1934. He died in 1937.

                Richard Kean‘s death remains unresolved, although there is a death in Kobe, Japan of a Richard Kean born at approx the right timescale.

                Holly.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                  aww, does that tie up with the workhouse dates found?
                  Yes Carolyn, sadly it does:-(

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                    My RE ancestor was serving about the time that yours was born.

                    Attestation papers/Chelsea Pensioners papers are on (and indexed on) FindMyPast. But, if like my ancestor, yours did not serve until pension (21 years, I believe), then his attestation papers were probably not preserved.

                    I was successful hiring a researcher to find his payroll entries at Kew. As I recall, REs are especially difficult because they didn't stay with one regiment.
                    As far as am I aware attestation papers were never disposed of as they are visible evidence of a contract between the services and the person. If they cannot be found they were more than likely to have been destroyed in German bombing raids in 1941. During this time approximately 70% of all records were destroyed by fire. For example, I have access to 3 of my 7 ancestors who fought in WW1.
                    Whoever said Seek and Ye shall find was not a genealogist.

                    David

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by grumpy View Post

                      As far as am I aware attestation papers were never disposed of as they are visible evidence of a contract
                      When I was searching for his and his son's attestation papers, both of whom were out of service before 1900, i was told by more than one source that attestation papers for those who did not serve until pension eligibility were often destroyed. And believe me, I did search. There are a lot of William Mitchells in FMPs attestation papers...

                      annswabey may be able to speak to this better?

                      Comment


                      • Thanks PhotoFamily. WW1 service records (lots of records destroyed) and WW2 service records (might not be possible to find if a different date of birth or alias was given). Earlier records may not have survived, and, as I've already said, men didn't necessarily serve in a local regiment. I'm not fishing for work, but try to help generally, but whatever I say is ignored. Don't think I'll bother any more
                        The National Archives, Kew – Research Service Offered
                        Contact me via PM on Family Tree Forum or via my personal website - www.militaryandfamilyresearch.co.uk

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by annswabey View Post
                          It's not true to say that in order for service records to have survived, a man had to have served for 20 years
                          Generally service records were retained for those who received an Army pension (although there are lots of men who fit this category whose records didn't survive). Pensions could have been granted for long service, but also for disability or illness, so a man may have only served for a shorter period to qualify. I've been to the National Archives a number of times since they reopened, and the general rule, apart from one series of records, is that they won't supply copies at the moment. The record you mentioned, where there is a small slip covering another page, is common. It doesn't necessarily mean that the page behind it is obscured. Even on a visit to the National Archives, you have to jump through hoops to be allowed to see an original record, as they just argue that they are online. Its worth searching the online service records for WW1 - there are some much earlier service records included
                          Hi Ann, did you mean this post? I am sure that it wasn't ignored on purpose, quite a busy thread, I think this very useful advice just got missed. so I am highlighting it again, so that everyone can see it.
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                          • No, not just this one - several others
                            The National Archives, Kew – Research Service Offered
                            Contact me via PM on Family Tree Forum or via my personal website - www.militaryandfamilyresearch.co.uk

                            Comment


                            • This is a very long thread so apologies if I’ve missed/misunderstood anything, but a few observations:

                              The Richard Kean who went into the Manchester (Withington) workhouse 1892/3 was in his 60’s & from Hulme, so is not the Richard born c1860. He died 8 Jan 1894 in Hulme, aged 62.

                              I think the Richard Kean in Warrington mentioned in the newspaper article was born c1854 Warrington and was the son of the late Alderman Richard Kean of Warrington, who died in 1888. This Richard Kean (Jr) married Maria Woodhouse in 1873, Warrington.

                              The 1890 newspaper article mentions that the Richard Kean who deserted his family “had good work in connection with the election of Guardians” which in no way describes a painter, however, Alderman Kean had been a member of the Warrington Board of Guardians and his son Richard was a clerk/bookkeeper. This Richard (Jr) had also been charged with being drunk & assaulting his wife Maria in 1888 (see St. Helens Examiner 14 April 1888). He was also charged in 1895 - when he was again drunk - and was sent to prison for one month’s hard labour. Maria said she had had “no comfort from him for years”, and was granted a separation order.

                              This puts the Richard Kean born Manchester back into the frame, and the series of events suggested by Vera at post #77 remain a good possibility. If Mary Ann Kean's 1891 death certificate hasn't been purchased yet then I think it might be worthwhile, as it should give the name & possibly the occupation of her husband. The address & informant may also be helpful.

                              Comment


                              • Following on from the above, in 1881 a Richard Kean was on the Manchester rate books at 7 Gardner Street, Hulme, which was also his address on the 1881 census.

                                A Richard Kean was then on the Manchester Rate Books at 135 Cobden Street, Manchester 1886 - 1888. By 1889 it was James Moore (131,133 & 135), and by 1890 William Walker had taken over.

                                On the 1886 attestation for Richard Kean into the 3rd Manchester Regiment (Militia) his address was given as 6 Harper Street, Brooks Bar, Manchester, with his father ‘confirming’ that he (Richard Jr) had lived there for 7 years 4 months, and was unmarried. This was clearly untrue, as Richard had married Mary Ann Young in 1880 and was living at Gardner Street in 1881.

                                Richard Jr’s disappearance from the rate books after 1888 suggests that this may be when he left the Militia and joined the regular army (RE’s). Although there has been talk of desertion, he may only have signed on for 3 years with the colours so may well have served his time by 1892. If that was the case then he would still have been liable to serve a further period in the Reserves, but I very much doubt they’d be looking too hard for him. He was possibly more concerned about being liable for the costs of supporting his daughters (son Joseph had died shortly after birth).

                                The DNA links to the family of Richard Kean, his absolute disappearance after 1891 and the subsequent appearance of William James Wilson does point to them being the same person. Again, I think the death certificate for Mary Ann Kean is vital in the search for further clues.

                                Comment


                                • The DNA riddle should be solvable too I guess, something I have no knowledge on, but if people have DNA matches that are Keans then that bit must be true, they just have no built family tree (or big/wide enough) to find the link.
                                  Carolyn
                                  Family Tree site

                                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by teasie View Post
                                    This is a very long thread so apologies if I’ve missed/misunderstood anything, but a few observations:

                                    The Richard Kean who went into the Manchester (Withington) workhouse 1892/3 was in his 60’s & from Hulme, so is not the Richard born c1860. He died 8 Jan 1894 in Hulme, aged 62.

                                    I think the Richard Kean in Warrington mentioned in the newspaper article was born c1854 Warrington and was the son of the late Alderman Richard Kean of Warrington, who died in 1888. This Richard Kean (Jr) married Maria Woodhouse in 1873, Warrington.

                                    The 1890 newspaper article mentions that the Richard Kean who deserted his family “had good work in connection with the election of Guardians” which in no way describes a painter, however, Alderman Kean had been a member of the Warrington Board of Guardians and his son Richard was a clerk/bookkeeper. This Richard (Jr) had also been charged with being drunk & assaulting his wife Maria in 1888 (see St. Helens Examiner 14 April 1888). He was also charged in 1895 - when he was again drunk - and was sent to prison for one month’s hard labour. Maria said she had had “no comfort from him for years”, and was granted a separation order.

                                    This puts the Richard Kean born Manchester back into the frame, and the series of events suggested by Vera at post #77 remain a good possibility. If Mary Ann Kean's 1891 death certificate hasn't been purchased yet then I think it might be worthwhile, as it should give the name & possibly the occupation of her husband. The address & informant may also be helpful.
                                    I would have to re read the thread, but I thought the workhouse record was for the children and it was the grandfather that put them in there, will have to revisit. It may have not been posted on the thread, but sure we knew there were a few Kean family around and had dismissed them as not being linked. I didn't read Holly's post properly and thought she was just finding out more about the family that we were thinking was the DNA linked ones.

                                    Holly - I am sure we traced the children - Did all 3 children die childless? So link is via Richards siblings.
                                    Carolyn
                                    Family Tree site

                                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post

                                      I would have to re read the thread, but I thought the workhouse record was for the children and it was the grandfather that put them in there, will have to revisit.
                                      There were workhouse records for the two girls being placed there by their grandfather, but earlier in the thread Holly said
                                      I’ve now found 3 Admissions for Richard Kean to The Manchester Workhouse (Withington) between 1891 and 1893. If I’m reading it correctly, it looks like he Died in The Workhouse in January 1893:-(

                                      And so Richard Kean, born Manchester 1860, wasn’t my Grandfather
                                      - and -

                                      As Richard Kean, born1860 seems to die in Withington Workhouse in 1893,he can’t have been the same person as my Grandfather William James Wilson, who married my grandmother Margaret Rees in Swansea in June 1893.
                                      The admissions, burial & death registrations show he was actually in his 60's, so definitely NOT the Richard born c1860. He's also not the man in Warrington, so there's still a good chance that Richard Kean bc1860 Manchester actually IS William James Wilson.

                                      I also don't think it was proved that the two girls died, but I'd need to read back too. I think there was a possible death for Catherine in Burnley 1913, but I don't think Mary Agnes has been traced.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by teasie View Post

                                        There were workhouse records for the two girls being placed there by their grandfather, but earlier in the thread Holly said - and -



                                        The admissions, burial & death registrations show he was actually in his 60's, so definitely NOT the Richard born c1860. He's also not the man in Warrington, so there's still a good chance that Richard Kean bc1860 Manchester actually IS William James Wilson.

                                        I also don't think it was proved that the two girls died, but I'd need to read back too. I think there was a possible death for Catherine in Burnley 1913, but I don't think Mary Agnes has been traced.
                                        I had misread Holly, and agree with you re workhouses.

                                        I will have to re read, I do remember finding one of the girls, but not how far we got.

                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment


                                        • Looking back over the thread this is where it kind of ended with regard to Richard Kean b 1860 and also being the same person as William James Wilson due to DNA matches

                                          Mary Agnes was never traced (Richard Keans Daughter)
                                          Death cert of wife Mary never ordered
                                          Catherine was traced and died childless, her marriage in USA said Richard as father in 1911, but she may not have a clue where or who he was. She died in the UK
                                          DNA matches to the descendants of Lucy Kean, Richard Kean and Patrick Butler and Jane Howard. Thomas and John Kean, (brothers of Richard Kean).
                                          Richard Kean had many siblings so each could be looked at - I know many were looked at.
                                          Richard Kean is possibly the one in Kent in 1891
                                          The first sighting of the new name of William James Wilson is 1901 in Wales


                                          Carolyn
                                          Family Tree site

                                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                          Comment

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