Where was Arthur Morris born. posted 9.1.21

[bettyespana]

I need some further info if possible please.Carolyn you found that Arthur Morris b. 5 Crosses Frodsham 10th Set 1910

Arthurs MMN was Kimber,First name was Ellen.

I need to find a marriage for Ellen to Harry Morris possibly prior to 1907 when Arthurs sister Emma was born

Without this info I am having problems getting further with this line.

Any help appreciated.

bettyespana

[GallowayLass]

I am really struggling here to identify Ellen Kimber's birth or baptism and also a marriage for her and Harry. Harry's birth I have found. He followed his father's trade. It's looking like Harry and Ellen never married and fibbed about it on the census and Emma and Arthur's birth certificates.

MORRIS, HARRY	TOMKINSON
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in NANTWICH Volume 08A Page 361

1881 census Class: RG11; Piece: 3548; Folio: 8; Page: 9; GSU roll: 1341849

Harry Morris

2

abt 1879

Son

James Morris

Ellen Morris

Male

Nantwich, Cheshire, England

Nantwich

Cheshire

England

26 Wych House Bank

Nantwich

14

View others on page

3548

8

9

James Morris ( shoemaker finisher) 46 Ellen Morris 34 William Morris 21 James Morris 18 Emma Morris 16 Herbert Morris 14 Arthur Morris 11 Harry Morris 2

Marriage of James MORRIS and Eleanor TOMKINSON

James Morris

Male

Single

30 Jan 1859

Nantwich, Cheshire, England

James Morris

Eleanor Tomkinson

1836190

I also wondered if Ellen KIMBER might have been married before so a KIMBER / MORRIS marriage wouldn't show up but that's not it either. It's deffo not this lady as she is still married to Emanuel in 1939 register. She was born in Stockport which is where the Ellen KIMBER you are looking for was also born according to 1911 census.

KIMBER

Mary Ellen

KILBRIDE

Emanuel Edward

1900

Stockport Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended

Stockport

STR/56/103

from ukbmd.org FMP has the image. The marriage was St Joseph R.C. Church, Stockport

[Darksecretz]

I've been looking too but not found anything aside from the missing childs birth and death.

Phoebe Morris MMN KIMBER
born 1905
April/may/june - Warrington
Vol 08c page 245

and death

1908
Phoebe Morris aged 3
Barton upon Irwell
Vol 08c Page 362.

I suspect like GL that one or both may have already been married which is why no marriage can be found.

I looked for a birth of Ellen but couldn't spot anything likely for 1881. The only likely one was Mary Ellen Kimber born 1883 Stockport. BUT GL already has accounted for her, so maybe Harry had already married but lived with Ellen asthough they were married.

Not even sure that getting the children's b/certs will help.

[cbcarolyn]

Here is previous thread

https://www.familytreeforum.com/forum/research-advice/family-history-research/1312737-where-was-arthur-morris-born

looks like marriage is hidden :(

[GallowayLass]

I hadn’t twigged there had been an earlier thread ?

[Darksecretz]

Now thinking about this if as we suspect that Ellen wasn't married to Harry, could this be her death?

Name: Ellen Kimber
Death Age: 87
Birth Date: abt 1881
Registration Date: Oct 1968
[Nov 1968]
[Dec 1968]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10e
Page: 406

do we know when Harry died?

[GallowayLass]

There are 9 trees on ancestry for Harry Morris born 1879 in Nantwich. 5 are private so nothing other than that given. Of the 4 public ones, only 1 knows his mother’s maiden surname and all 4 show her as Ellen rather than Eleanor. None of the 4 have a wife for Harry and also none of the 4 have a death for him.

[GallowayLass]

There’s no photo or biography on findagrave but this should be the burial of the death Darksecretz found.

Ellen Kimber

Birth unknown

Burial Oct 1968

Gorton Cemetery Manchester, Metropolitan Borough of Manchester, Greater Manchester, England

MConsecrated 222

137219955

[GallowayLass]

Then again maybe not This is burial records online from Manchester City Council. I entered Gorton cemetery but no date. You need to be logged in and purchase credits to see more on each person but this looks to me like it’s a Kimber family plot.

Gorton Cemetery	MConsecrated	222	1	Albert Kimber
Gorton Cemetery	MConsecrated	222	2	Ellen Kimber
Gorton Cemetery	MConsecrated	222	3	Albert Kimber
Gorton Cemetery	MConsecrated	222	4	Jessie Isobel Kimber

[GallowayLass]

I can even find a likely Ellen Kimber on census 1881 or 1891. She may not have made the 1881 if her yob in 1911 is spot on but I had a look anyway.

[bettyespana]

I am really struggling here to identify Ellen Kimber's birth or baptism and also a marriage for her and Harry. Harry's birth I have found. He followed his father's trade. It's looking like Harry and Ellen never married and fibbed about it on the census and Emma and Arthur's birth certificates.

MORRIS, HARRY	TOMKINSON
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in NANTWICH Volume 08A Page 361

1881 census Class: RG11; Piece: 3548; Folio: 8; Page: 9; GSU roll: 1341849

Harry Morris

2

abt 1879

Son

James Morris

Ellen Morris

Male

Nantwich, Cheshire, England

Nantwich

Cheshire

England

26 Wych House Bank

Nantwich

14

View others on page

3548

8

9

James Morris ( shoemaker finisher) 46 Ellen Morris 34 William Morris 21 James Morris 18 Emma Morris 16 Herbert Morris 14 Arthur Morris 11 Harry Morris 2

Marriage of James MORRIS and Eleanor TOMKINSON

James Morris

Male

Single

30 Jan 1859

Nantwich, Cheshire, England

James Morris

Eleanor Tomkinson

1836190

I also wondered if Ellen KIMBER might have been married before so a KIMBER / MORRIS marriage wouldn't show up but that's not it either. It's deffo not this lady as she is still married to Emanuel in 1939 register. She was born in Stockport which is where the Ellen KIMBER you are looking for was also born according to 1911 census.

KIMBER

Mary Ellen

KILBRIDE

Emanuel Edward

1900

Stockport Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended

Stockport

STR/56/103

from ukbmd.org FMP has the image. The marriage was St Joseph R.C. Church, Stockport

I didn't see this marriage to Emanuel Kilbride but I found her christening on 24th Dec 1882 at the same church St Josephs R.C Stockport.She was named Mary Helen Kimber

[bettyespana]

On the census Ellen was stated as born Stockport which is Cheshire.The burials you have found I would not think they would be relevant as Manchester Gorton Cemetery
was in Lancashire.I don't know when either Harry or Ellen died.In fact it was only when I was searching for Arthur Morris who was my own childrens Grandfather that the searches
found his parents Harry & Ellen.Morris.

I also note that both Phoebe 1905-1908,Emma 1907 were born in Lancashire. Arthur was born Frodsham,Cheshire 1910 & by the time of Arthur getting married in1932,he had
moved to Eccles which is under the reg,district of Barton upon Irwell & where his sister Emma also lived.
In the 1911c they are living Frodsham,Cheshire but although Arthur & his wife & family lived in Eccles until they were deceased I have never found where Arthur was after the 1911c.until I found he married his wife Clara in 1932 in Salford. Their 6 children were told Arthur was born Frodsham but none of them ever knew when they arrived in Eccles.It was all treated as a secret.
My son wants to know about his family & I am trying to help him find them.

[cbcarolyn]

I can't see anything either.

NB Gorton is only a few miles from Stockport - not that is any help!

[cbcarolyn]

checked out a few births and decided to put them on a SS! Nothing at all helpful thee though, but eliminates many!

Kimber	Beatrice	1885	Chorlton, Lancashire, England	HALLAM
Kimber	Ann	1878	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Handley
Kimber	Edward	1880	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Handley
Kimber	Mary Ellen	1883	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Hanley
Kember	Edith	1883	Chorlton, Lancashire, England	Levy
Kember	Walter Herbert	1884	Chorlton, Lancashire, England	Levy
Kember	Reginald	1888	Chorlton, Lancashire, England	Levy
Kimber	Herbert	1886	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Price
Kimber	Ada	1888	Stockport, Cheshire, England	PRICE
Kimber	Matilda	1882	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Sykes
Kimber	James	1884	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Sykes
Kimber	John	1885	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Sykes
Kimber	Joseph	1888	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Sykes
Kimber	Catherine Adelaide	1881	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Taylor
Kimber	William	1886	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Thompson
Kimber	Walter	1887	Stockport, Cheshire, England	Twyford
Kimber	Lily	1888	Stockport, Cheshire, England	TWYFORD
Kimber	Katie	1888	Chorlton, Lancashire, England	WHEELER
Kimber	Ada Jessie	1885	Chorlton, Lancashire, England	WHEELER
Kimber	Florence Louisa	1880	Salford, Lancashire, England	WRIGHT
Kimber	Mary Emily	1883	Salford, Lancashire, England	WRIGHT
Kimber	Ada	1886	Chorlton, Lancashire, England	WRIGHT

[GallowayLass]

No image but here is transcript of Phoebe’s baptism.

Phoebe

Morris

Female

1905

-

1905

20 Apr 1905

Warrington, Lancashire, England

Warrington

Lancashire

England

Harry

Morris

Mary Ellen

Morris

England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975

Birth entry on GRO Online

MORRIS, PHOEBE	KIMBER
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 245

Death entry on GRO Online

MORRIS, PHOEBE	3
GRO Reference: 1908 J Quarter in BARTON UPON IRWELL Volume 08C Page 362

Can’t find a burial.

[GallowayLass]

Getting somewhere I think, maybe....bear with me.

[GallowayLass]

1911 census 2 Marple View Stockport, Stockport, Cheshire, England

Michael	Kilbride	Head	Married	Male	55	1856	General Hawker	Cheshire Stockport
Mary	Kilbride	Wife	Married	Female	48	1863	-	Cheshire Stockport
Emanuel	Kilbride	Son	Married	Male	35	1876	Scourer Hat Works	Cheshire Stockport
Annie	Kilbride	Granddaughter	Married	Female	9	1902	At School	Cheshire Stockport

Mary was Michael’s 2nd wife

KILBRIDE

Michael

CARROLL

Mary

1895

Stockport Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended

Stockport

The first wife was called Jane and she was Emanuel’s mother.

KILLBRIDE *	Michael	ECCLESTON	Jane	1873	Heaton Norris, St Thomas	Stockport	ST7/9/66
KILLBRIDE *	Michael	NEWTON	Jane	1873	Heaton Norris, St Thomas

Emanuel’s birth. The mms of NEWTON should, I think have been recorded as ECCLESTON as in the 1881 census, MICHAEL has a stepson called Robert NEWTON

KILLBROYD

Emanuel Edward

NEWTON

1875

Stockport Second

Stockport

ST2/35/2

The child called Annie born 1902 who is granddaughter to Michael is actually Emanuel KILBRIDE and Mary Ellen KIMBER’s only child. The image shows that the enumerator has made a bit of a mess listing who Annie belongs to - red scoring out marks.

KILBRIDE, ANNIE	KIMBER
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in STOCKPORT Volume 08A Page 60

Now, you will have spotted that Mary Ellen KILBRIDE nee KIMBER is not at home in 1911. I can’t find her anywhere else either although my brain could be getting overloaded. Can somebody else please double check her? but I’m pretty certain she’s in Frodsham.

Emanuel and Mary Ellen are together in 1901 with no children, just their two selves.

Now previously I said that the Mary Ellen / Mary Helen / Maria Helena (baptism) KIMBER who married Emanuel Edward KILBRIDE could not be your Ellen KIMBER wife of Harry MORRIS as Emanuel and Ellen are still together in 1939 Register.
Well, that turns out to be a different Ellen altogether! It is this pair who are 73 Richardson Street, Stockport in 1939.

KILBRIDE

Emanuel Edward

BOWETT

Ellen

1936

Stockport, St Thomas

Stockport

ST19/9/129

St Thomas is the same church where Michael KILBRIDE married his 2nd wife. Its correct name and location is St Thomas the Apostle, Heaton Chapel and it’s Church of England. Perhaps the KILBRIDE family was not Roman Catholic or perhaps they lapsed? The KIMBER family were and the CARROLL family likely were which explains one marriage each for Michael and Emanuel in each faith.

My theory is that sometime between 1902 when Annie KILBRIDE was born and 1905 when Phoebe MORRIS was born, Mary Ellen KILBRIDE nee KIMBER leaves her husband and sets up house with Harry MORRIS.

[GallowayLass]

cbcarolyn

Your spreadsheet was worth doing. It has identified 2 siblings for Mary Ellen Those with mms HANDLEY or HANLEY are the right family.

HANDLEY

Margaret

KIMBER

James

1876

Stockport Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended

Probably another St Joseph R.C. Stockport wedding.

[bettyespana]

1911 census 2 Marple View Stockport, Stockport, Cheshire, England

Michael	Kilbride	Head	Married	Male	55	1856	General Hawker	Cheshire Stockport
Mary	Kilbride	Wife	Married	Female	48	1863	-	Cheshire Stockport
Emanuel	Kilbride	Son	Married	Male	35	1876	Scourer Hat Works	Cheshire Stockport
Annie	Kilbride	Granddaughter	Married	Female	9	1902	At School	Cheshire Stockport

Mary was Michael’s 2nd wife

KILBRIDE

Michael

CARROLL

Mary

1895

Stockport Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended

Stockport

The first wife was called Jane and she was Emanuel’s mother.

KILLBRIDE *	Michael	ECCLESTON	Jane	1873	Heaton Norris, St Thomas	Stockport	ST7/9/66
KILLBRIDE *	Michael	NEWTON	Jane	1873	Heaton Norris, St Thomas

Emanuel’s birth. The mms of NEWTON should, I think have been recorded as ECCLESTON as in the 1881 census, MICHAEL has a stepson called Robert NEWTON

KILLBROYD

Emanuel Edward

NEWTON

1875

Stockport Second

Stockport

ST2/35/2

The child called Annie born 1902 who is granddaughter to Michael is actually Emanuel KILBRIDE and Mary Ellen KIMBER’s only child. The image shows that the enumerator has made a bit of a mess listing who Annie belongs to - red scoring out marks.

KILBRIDE, ANNIE	KIMBER
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in STOCKPORT Volume 08A Page 60

Now, you will have spotted that Mary Ellen KILBRIDE nee KIMBER is not at home in 1911. I can’t find her anywhere else either although my brain could be getting overloaded. Can somebody else please double check her? but I’m pretty certain she’s in Frodsham.

Emanuel and Mary Ellen are together in 1901 with no children, just their two selves.

Now previously I said that the Mary Ellen / Mary Helen / Maria Helena (baptism) KIMBER who married Emanuel Edward KILBRIDE could not be your Ellen KIMBER wife of Harry MORRIS as Emanuel and Ellen are still together in 1939 Register.
Well, that turns out to be a different Ellen altogether! It is this pair who are 73 Richardson Street, Stockport in 1939.

KILBRIDE

Emanuel Edward

BOWETT

Ellen

1936

Stockport, St Thomas

Stockport

ST19/9/129

St Thomas is the same church where Michael KILBRIDE married his 2nd wife. Its correct name and location is St Thomas the Apostle, Heaton Chapel and it’s Church of England. Perhaps the KILBRIDE family was not Roman Catholic or perhaps they lapsed? The KIMBER family were and the CARROLL family likely were which explains one marriage each for Michael and Emanuel in each faith.

My theory is that sometime between 1902 when Annie KILBRIDE was born and 1905 when Phoebe MORRIS was born, Mary Ellen KILBRIDE nee KIMBER leaves her husband and sets up house with Harry MORRIS.

Yes looking at all this work you have done I think your theory holds weight.I have this Mary Ellen Kimber in my notes & I agree that it looks as though this is the Ellen Kimber who
was with Harry Morris.
In the 1891c Harry Morris is at Dale Street Ashton under Lyne with his father James & brother Arthur
In the 1901c he is still living in Ashton under Lyne age 21

Sometime between then & the 1911c Harry moved to Frodsham where he lived with Ellen as his wife & the two children Emma & Arthur.

[Darksecretz]

Baptism?

Name: Mary Helen Kimber
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 24 Dec 1882
Baptism Place: St. Joseph's, Stockport, Cheshire, England
Father:
James Kimber
Mother:
Margaret Hanley
FHL Film Number: 2068242
Reference ID: item 3-5

Birth ref just in case you do want to order her b/cert/pdf

Name: Mary Ellen Kimber
Registration Year: 1883
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Stockport
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 58