Where was Arthur Morris born. posted 9.1.21

[Darksecretz]

Ellen Morris & Harry/ children 1911:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...'successSource')


some great detective work there GL.

[bettyespana]

I've been looking too but not found anything aside from the missing childs birth and death.

Phoebe Morris MMN KIMBER
born 1905
April/may/june - Warrington
Vol 08c page 245

and death

1908
Phoebe Morris aged 3
Barton upon Irwell
Vol 08c Page 362.

I suspect like GL that one or both may have already been married which is why no marriage can be found.

I looked for a birth of Ellen but couldn't spot anything likely for 1881. The only likely one was Mary Ellen Kimber born 1883 Stockport. BUT GL already has accounted for her, so maybe Harry had already married but lived with Ellen asthough they were married.

Not even sure that getting the children's b/certs will help.

Although Phoebe was born Warrington in1905 she died in Barton upon Irwell .This is the reg,district for Eccles.

Phoebe was Arthur Morris's deceased sister & Emma his other sister was born Eccles 1907

It looks as though sometime between 1908 when Phoebe died the family moved to Frodsham where Arthur was born in 1910.

Sometime between 1910 & 1932 when Arthur married Clara Burgess (Salford) both he & Emma his sister were back in Eccles.
At what point they moved back & why remains a mystery I suppose until we can look at the 1921c for a clue.

I do know that both Arthur Morris & family & Emma & family lived in Eccles for the rest of their lives.

Thank you to everyone for all your hard work

[Darksecretz]

This could be a potential death for Ellen.

Name: Ellen Morris
Death Age: 50
Birth Date: abt 1882
Registration Date: Oct 1932
[Nov 1932]
[Dec 1932]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Barton upon Irwell
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 618

not that we know for sure exactly where she was living, not unless you can find electoral roles for Harry & Co.

just having a look to see if I can spot them in 1939, though not much is forthcoming at the moment.

[Darksecretz]

This looks to be Harrys death, which could explain his absence from the 1939.

Name: Harry Morris
Death Age: 42
Birth Date: abt 1880
Registration Date: Jan 1922
[Feb 1922]
[Mar 1922]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Barton upon Irwell
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 865


Ancestry have the vol/page wrong on their transcription [but I have checked the image and put the right one in above] I have also sent a message to ancestry telling them that the info isn't correct.

[cbcarolyn]

OOh I went to bed having dismissed Mary Ellen ....I believed GallowayLass returned and mystery is now solved?

[cbcarolyn]

My theory is that sometime between 1902 when Annie KILBRIDE was born and 1905 when Phoebe MORRIS was born, Mary Ellen KILBRIDE nee KIMBER leaves her husband and sets up house with Harry MORRIS.

sounds like a good theory and never a marriage then?

[GallowayLass]

If the death of Ellen MORRIS in 1932 Barton on Irwell is the correct Ellen nee KIMBER, then that sits well with Emanuel marrying again in 1936. He would have had to wait till Ellen died before he was free to marry again. I am not at home right now (on a bus and phone battery is fading) but if nobody else has looked to see if there are grave details anywhere to establish if Ellen and Harry d.1922 are in the same plot then I’ll have a go later.
The 1921 census (when it appears) is going to be a clincher on this one I think.

[bettyespana]

If the death of Ellen MORRIS in 1932 Barton on Irwell is the correct Ellen nee KIMBER, then that sits well with Emanuel marrying again in 1936. He would have had to wait till Ellen died before he was free to marry again. I am not at home right now (on a bus and phone battery is fading) but if nobody else has looked to see if there are grave details anywhere to establish if Ellen and Harry d.1922 are in the same plot then I’ll have a go later.
The 1921 census (when it appears) is going to be a clincher on this one I think.

I wonder if they maybe at Peel Green Cemetery where Arthur Morris & his family are buried.I do know that Agecroft Cemetery holds records for Peel Green & also Weaste Cemetery if that helps.

[Darksecretz]

If the death of Ellen MORRIS in 1932 Barton on Irwell is the correct Ellen nee KIMBER, then that sits well with Emanuel marrying again in 1936. He would have had to wait till Ellen died before he was free to marry again. I am not at home right now (on a bus and phone battery is fading) but if nobody else has looked to see if there are grave details anywhere to establish if Ellen and Harry d.1922 are in the same plot then I’ll have a go later.
The 1921 census (when it appears) is going to be a clincher on this one I think.

erm, he might not have to wait to re marry, he could have just committed bigamy!..

might FreeReg have the burial details?

[Darksecretz]

Nope Freereg don't have them, just checked.

[GallowayLass]

I have had no success at the Lancashire OPC Lancashire OnLine Parish Clerk Project - Search (lan-opc.org.uk)

? Maybe more luck at deceasedonline.com which is where the council pages on burial searches takes you to. I have no sub so can only do a basic search. Full details need paid for, costs are listed. Burial records, cremation records, grave maps, genealogy and ancestry at Deceased Online
There are two Ellen MORRIS buried Greater Manchester 1932 one with 4 other people in the grave and one with 1 other person in the grave.
There is one entry for Harry MORRIS but I had to extend the search to 1921-1922 to pick it up. It was an end December burial and probably fits with death found in 1Q 1922. However, there is a fly in the ointment over the Harry entry as going by the date of burial, I found an entry in the index to the National Probate Register which makes me think the burial is not the correct Harry MORRIS. Extracted image posted at the end

burial register summary
last name Morris
first names Ellen
burial date 16 March 1932
location Greater Manchester

Description
Grave details and 4 other burials £1.50
Burial register scan £2.00
Map of grave location £2.50

burial register summary
last name Morris
first names Ellen
burial date 15 October 1932
location Greater Manchester

Description
Grave details and 1 other burial £1.50
Burial register scan £2.00
Map of grave location £2.50

burial register summary
last name Morris
first names Harry
burial date 20 December 1921
location Lancashire

Description
Grave details and 4 other burials £1.50
Burial register scan £2.00
Map of grave location £2.50


MORRIS, Harry 1921 Burial.JPG

[GallowayLass]

Trying to tie these entries up.

The Harry who is buried 20 December 1921 in the grave with 4 other people appears to be the same family as the Ellen who is buried 16 March 1932.

GRO entry for that Ellen shows she was aged 76 so not your Ellen

MORRIS, ELLEN	76
GRO Reference: 1932 M Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 454

The other one who is in the grave with 1 other person is likely to be this one as the burial date fits with quarter of registration and the age at death. I think I'd try this one first if you are going to buy credits or get a short sub.

MORRIS, ELLEN	50
GRO Reference: 1932 D Quarter in BARTON UPON IRWELL Volume 08C Page 618

ukbmd.org can further narrow down the subdistrict for the 4Q one

Surname	Forename(s)	Age at Death	Year	Sub-District	Region	Registers At	Reference
MORRIS	Ellen	50	1932	Stretford	Lancashire	Trafford	STR/71/30

Stretford is 4 miles SE of Eccles.

[GallowayLass]

Oooh!!! I went looking for 1908 deaths of a Phoebe MORRIS. Believe it or not there were two of them and I think there's one in each of the graves found above.

First one looks like she's related to the Ellen MORRIS buried March 1932 and the Harry buried December 1921, the man in the probate image.

burial register summary
last name Morris
first names Phoebe
burial date 02 December 1908
location Lancashire
Description
Grave details and 4 other burials £1.50
Burial register scan £2.00
Map of grave location £2.50

MORRIS, PHOEBE	62
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in BOLTON Volume 08C Page 313

Surname	Forename(s)	Age at Death	Year	Sub-District	Region	Registers At	Reference
MORRIS	Phoebe	62	1908	Great Bolton and Lever	Lancashire	Bolton	GBL/9/107

The second one, I'm fairly certain is your Harry and Ellen's young girl Phoebe. It would make sense that her mother is buried with her but it leaves us no further forward as to when your Harry died nor where he is buried.

burial register summary
last name Morris
first names Phoebe
burial date 23 June 1908
location Greater Manchester
Description
Grave details and 1 other burial £1.50
Burial register scan £2.00
Map of grave location £2.50

MORRIS, PHOEBE	3
GRO Reference: 1908 J Quarter in BARTON UPON IRWELL Volume 08C Page 362

ukbmd.org hasn't indexed this one yet.

[Darksecretz]

I'm not sure that the probate is for the same burial GL... Bolton is about 13 miles from Manchester. and surely there would be more local cemeteries for him?

[Darksecretz]

I'm not sure that the probate is for the same burial GL... Bolton is about 13 miles from Manchester. and surely there would be more local cemeteries for him?

oops sorry cross posted.

[GallowayLass]

This snippet is from the 'Andrews' ancestry tree owned by member 'dhelensmith' and shows the later life details of the Harry MORRIS who is the man in the probate image and the grave with 4 other people in it. The marriage shown in 1895 was his 2nd wife. The first was Edna ANDREW 1851-1895. Harry MORRIS was born 1853 Disley, Cheshire according to the tree.
Have checked deceasedonline for Edna's burial. It was 16 February 1895 and she is in a grave with 4 others. A match



MORRIS, Harry later life.JPG

[GallowayLass]

I'm not sure that the probate is for the same burial GL... Bolton is about 13 miles from Manchester. and surely there would be more local cemeteries for him?

Hello there Mrs. See my post #36. We have been beavering away together out of sight of each other LOL Nowt proved though unless the grave records are purchased

[bettyespana]

I can't think that anyone who died in the Barton upon Irwell area would be buried in Bolton.There are quite a few cemetries inbetween.

I can imagine it would be considered by family members for the deceased child & mother to be buried together.

The 3 cemeteries I spoke about before PeelGreen,Weaste,& Agecroft would be the most likely.

All 3 now are under Gt.Manchester .Where as since before govt .boundry changes Peel Green came under Barton upon Irwell
& the other 2 both in Salford.

I don't think Bolton comes into it at all.

[cbcarolyn]

I did spot this in Irlam Boundary Road, 1930, names are too common to get any sense if this could be them
Boundary Road Irlam.JPG

[GallowayLass]

Have just found this on billiongraves. The Phoebe MORRIS died aged 62 in 1908 was the wife of a William MORRIS. Here the stone which is in Tonge Cemetery which more sense but not the same grave as any Ellen of Harry. The plot thickens...

12198996 (1).jpg