Help with Rose and James, please in 1881

[cbcarolyn]

I have been mulling over this, and wondering why she would give the family bible to James, yet she makes no mention of their relationship, that is curious. It sort of implies that he has a connection to her family, and not Mr Watsons.

Curiosity has got the better of me, and have been trying to trace John Watson back to no avail, but it could even be a connection with Mr Jefferson.....Would be just nice to know - even though not a direct relation to the family you are researching

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Thank you for your interest Carolyn. I've had a somewhat unexpectedly strange day, so will have to leave the puzzle until tomorrow, when I've had a chance to sharpen up my wits!

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I haven't found anything new to bring to the table, but it seems that James Holiday farmed in East Yorkshire and that in 1861 Eliza Dibnah was his resident cook, probably cum housekeeper. Both were single. In Q4 1862 the birth of James Holiday Dibnah was registered at Hull - no mmn. In 1871 James Holiday and Eliza Dibner were still at the farm; James Holiday Dibnar was nowhere to be found, but the mysterious James (recorded as Watson) was in West Ella with John & Dinah Watson - he was 8 years old and born at Hull. By 1881 James and Eliza, both recorded as Holiday and married, had moved to Norfolk and with them was their son James Holiday. By 1891 all three Holidays were in Lincolnshire, James jnr being described as partner in the farm. John Watson had died in 1878 and Dinah in 1885.
James Holiday died in Lincolnshire in 1893 - by 1901 Eliza was back in East Yorkshire whilst her son James D Holiday had married in Oxfordshire in 1900 and in 1901 he and his wife were recorded in Edgeware Mx, where James was a farm manager. Eliza died in January 1911 and was buried in the churchyard of the East Riding village where she had lived. James and his wife were in Edenbridge Kent in 1911; James was recorded as farmer and employer.

Some observations:
I never found a marriage record for James Holiday and Eliza Dibner, although by 1881 Eliza was recorded as Eliza Holliday.

As census is only a once in a decade snapshot, there is no way of knowing whether James jnr permanently lived with the Watsons, or whether he just visited from time to time and one of his stays coincided with 1871 census.

James was born in Hull in late 1862 - James Holiday and Eliza Dibnah farmed in a village 11 miles away from Hull, but John and Eliza Watson lived in Hull in 1861. (I know the birth cert for James would give his place of birth and that may be the way for my friend to go. However it will not be a priority purchase at present, as it won't help specifically with her family tree.)

So far, I haven't managed to find any Holiday or Dibnah link with Dinah's birth family, although I confess I haven't delved into the Watson family as yet and am a bit pushed for time at present.

James Dibnah Holiday must have kept in touch with Diana, however, for her to include him in her will.

Sadly James was an only child and he and his wife appear not to have had any children. He is included on ONE Ancestry tree only, but the treeholder has a tree of 57,000 people and there is no indication of HOW this trio are connected to any of his lines. (I recognise the name of the tree holder as at one time I corresponded with his wife over a family we had in common. I sent quite a lot of information on that line, which is included on the tree, but nothing ever came back in exchange.)

I thank everyone for their interest, help and suggestions with this puzzle.

Jay

[vera2013]

I digressed and took a look at Rose again for the 1881. Still no luck. Did follow a possible child before Edith's birth and noted some connection to Bridlington but tied myself in knots

Will re read your findings on James Holiday Dibnah EDIT Carolyn see you picked up on William in previous post.

The 1862 birth for James is possibly James with a brother William b 1864 d 1864. On GRO with mmn not recorded. Baptism record father James mother Maria. Don't think parents ever married. Looking at a possible Maria H*today as mother but she would have been very young at time of James's birth

Vera

[vera2013]

There is a marriage for Eliza Dibnah and James Holiday 1879 East Yorkshire. Reg district York 1st q

Vera

[Janet in Yorkshire]

There is a marriage for Eliza Dibnah and James Holiday 1879 East Yorkshire. Reg district York 1st q

Vera

Thank you Vera. You're a star. I've looked back through my notes which I made some time ago and see that I had looked at and discarded that because the image is on FMP and both parties said that they were 21!!! Perhaps that represents 21 yrs and upwards?? which is what they used to say at one time. I think I though at the time that was not to do with James Holiday Dibney, of the will!
I'm sure you're right and that it is their marriage, although a church in the centre of York city is an unexpected venue for a couple from Holderness. However, they must have gone on to Norfolk after that, where they were recorded as a family of three in 1881.

Thank you for keeping on gnawing away ay it - my friend is going to be delighted. She has had the most awful day today due to a computer fraud and all these bits fitting together will give her a welcome boost.

Both you and Carolyn have been brilliant with your constant input and I am so grateful for your persistence.

[vera2013]

Wondering about Education for James b 1862. Was he perhaps boarded with the Watson family to attend a particular School in the area

Strange if James Holiday owned the 1861 farm in Yorks he chose to move to Norfolk and then Lincs. Perhaps he was a Farm Manager

The 1893 death for James Holiday gives a dob of 1818. Can't see a Will

Sorry more queries than answers

Vera

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I suspect the land was rented out and James sen was the tenant. There were very few independently owned farms in this area at that time - most belonged to the Lord of the manor and the farmers paid an annual rent.

Jay

[cbcarolyn]

I have found a few records of Eliza - thinking this is probably her. Notice that Anna Watson also there, but not really looking like a birth place of interest as it is Beverley.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/yrkho107_2363_2363-0950?pId=42621748

[cbcarolyn]

this says occupier from Ancestry 1874

1874.JPG

[Janet in Yorkshire]

John Watson, Dinah's husband, gives Harpham as his place of birth in 1861 & 1871 and a date of birth of c1817/1818. That's a village about 30 miles north of Hull. He too was widowed when he married in Beverley in1857 - his father was Robert Watson, blacksmith. Robert Watson was married twice, firstly to Esther and then to Caroline. There are Harpham bps for a daughter from each marriage, either side of John's probable birth, but I can't see a bp for John Watson, s/o blacksmith Robert.

[vera2013]

On Ancestry there is a non com baptism for Harpham for John Watson

Father Robert a Smith, mother Catherine.

John b 21/01/1819 bap 16/02/1819.

I have Looked at John Jefferson and John Watson not as yet seeing any links to James Holiday Dibnah.

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

There is this marriage:
Name: Robert Watson
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 7 Feb 1818
Marriage Place: Harpham,York,England
Spouse: Cathrine Reaston

which could fit with the above baptism

[cbcarolyn]

Looks like Catherine died age 33 burial Harpham 23 Aug 1825

[vera2013]

I'm still puzzling over the William Holiday Dibnah b 1864 Hull no mmn. Bap record Son of James and Maria. William d 1864 at 14 days. Burial record Hull Holy Trinity son of James and Maria residence Myton. Eliza Dibnah had a sister Maria but she married in 1861 Hy Martin and died 1867.

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

I had missed the fact that William had a different mother. I have not got baptism for James, maybe could be even odder and he is also Maria?

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Thank you ladies. I think I've been losing the plot - I see in post #51 I put that Robert's second wife was Caroline. It should, of course, been Catherine. (In mitigation, it was quite late and I didn't write it down as I went along )
I haven't get anywhere with John Watson's earlier life - both his parents had died by the mid 1830's and I haven't managed to track him down before his marriage to Dinah in 1857, by which time he was a widower.

Interesting about the Maria Dibnah/ James Holiday pairing. Perhaps he was having a dalliance with the two sisters at the same time (not unknown and something that happened twice that I know of in the small village where I was brought up ) If only there had been an annual census and we could find out more about comings and goings and the length of relationships. As James & Eliza were in the same establishment in both 1861 & 1871, one jumps the the conclusion that they were together throughout that period. However, IF there was a dalliance, perhaps Eliza left and found somewhere to place her son (Dinah??) whilst she worked to pay for his keep?? Perhaps they were reunited after Maria's death?? I feel there is a back story here, but one we are never going to get to the bottom of.
What a saddo I have become! They are not even part of my tree - but the family dynamics are becoming much more interesting than my own East Yorkshire lot of poor, but "respectable" ag labs. On the other hand, my Northumbrian, Irish immigrants led much more colourful lives

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I had missed the fact that William had a different mother. I have not got baptism for James, maybe could be even odder and he is also Maria?

I think I am going to have to lie down in a darkened room with a soothing cloth on my forehead

[cbcarolyn]

Thank you ladies. I think I've been losing the plot - I see in post #51 I put that Robert's second wife was Caroline. It should, of course, been Catherine. (In mitigation, it was quite late and I didn't write it down as I went along )
I haven't get anywhere with John Watson's earlier life - both his parents had died by the mid 1830's and I haven't managed to track him down before his marriage to Dinah in 1857, by which time he was a widower.

Interesting about the Maria Dibnah/ James Holiday pairing. Perhaps he was having a dalliance with the two sisters at the same time (not unknown and something that happened twice that I know of in the small village where I was brought up ) If only there had been an annual census and we could find out more about comings and goings and the length of relationships. As James & Eliza were in the same establishment in both 1861 & 1871, one jumps the the conclusion that they were together throughout that period. However, IF there was a dalliance, perhaps Eliza left and found somewhere to place her son (Dinah??) whilst she worked to pay for his keep?? Perhaps they were reunited after Maria's death?? I feel there is a back story here, but one we are never going to get to the bottom of.
What a saddo I have become! They are not even part of my tree - but the family dynamics are becoming much more interesting than my own East Yorkshire lot of poor, but "respectable" ag labs. On the other hand, my Northumbrian, Irish immigrants led much more colourful lives

Jay

Absolutely, there really should have been more census

We need the family bible....I reckon it must have had some things in there for James, otherwise no idea why she would have given it to him.....perhaps that was a big revelation in there for him! Shame he didn't have children......

Like you say - they are a puzzle that gets under your skin, but probably will never be solved. Can't find anyone being mentioned in the papers. not a snippet.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Maria Dibnah mar Henry Martin on 25 March 1861. Census was taken on 7 April 1861. Can anyone find Maria in census, please?