Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Help with Rose and James, please in 1881

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #81
    Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post
    I have just found what I think is the burial of John's first wife Sarah nee Hopper - at North Newbald, buried 25April 1854, Sarah WALTON (sic) 29 yrs. (I don't see a burial of a possible baby.)
    North Newbald is a village about 10 miles from Beverley and was where Sarah's parents lived and where she and John were married.

    @ Carolyn - an "interesting" birth registration you've unearthed.
    When the couple married, John said he was of "Bridlington Quay," which was the original settlement of Bridlington "Old Town" - he named his father as Robert Watson, blacksmith, but omitted to say his father was deceased. He also omitted to give himself any occupation There appear to have been no Watson witnesses - these were James Brown, Mary Hopper, Mary Hornsey, Sarah Hornsey.
    James and Sarah have still not been found in 1851 as yet. The next thing I have for him is his marriage (after lic) to Dinah Jefferson (nee Cook) at Beverley St Mary in 1857 when he declared himself to be a farmer of Beverley. One of the two witnesses could have been Thos Watson. By 1861 John & Diana were in Myton, which was a part of the old city of Hull.
    Good find on that burial Jay. Can't see any children for Sarah before or in 1854. As Sarah buried Newbald maybe John Watson working for John Hopper at the time.

    Sister Mary Hopper married James Brown 1850 Newbald.

    Sister Ann married John Haldenby PC 1848. Was in London, Hammersmith Fulham for a while.

    Strange John Watson doesn't give occupation (any occupation) on MC.

    vera

    Comment


      #82
      @Vera.
      Very interesting about John Brown being Sarah's intended b-i-law. He and Mary married in September 1850 and the two witnesses were Hornseys, so didn't return the favour!
      In 1851 John Hopper (Sarah's father) was recorded as an ag lab, by 1861 he was a coal merchant. Still in North Newbald in both years.

      I'm wondering if young James was a nurse child, brought up by Dinah and reclaimed by his parents when he was of employable age, or if perhaps Dinah and Miss Dibnah had been friends, and James just sometimes spent time at the Watson house, one occasion just happening to coincide with census. The same could had applied to Rose too of course.

      Jay
      Janet in Yorkshire



      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

      Comment


        #83
        No John or Sarah Watson in Nth of Sth Newbald 1851. Possibly still an Eating House proprietor in Hull

        So James Holiday Dibnah ? to the Watsons 1862 as nurse child and not returned to ?biological parents until 1871-1881. Not seeing any likely school records. Was Eliza sick or not willing to care for James Holiday's child by another Dibnah. Or just one off visiting 1871.

        I note that John Watson b 1819 Harpham and James Holiday b 1818 Kilham lived 4 miles apart. Wonder about the Watson family involvement ie the Watsons living next door to James Holiday's brother John in 1851 Carolyn posted. Probably stretching it a bit. Could be any of many scenarios.

        Vera

        Comment


          #84
          Looks like we won't be able to solve the mystery, a little further on from when you started. Would just be nice to find a firm link of the Watsons and the Holdays/Dibnahs

          Just need a time machine and see what was going on....
          Last edited by cbcarolyn; 15-10-20, 21:06.
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

          Comment


            #85
            I agree Carolyn. Tis a mystery. The bc would be a help If only to eliminate some of the theories.

            I'm still going to have a look at the 1851 Watsons in ?Bridlington next door to James Holiday's relies

            Vera
            ​​​​

            Comment


              #86
              vera, sadly elementary school attendance wasn't compulsory until 1880 , by which time James would have been in employment.

              Carolyn, My friend is descended from a lady who was the sister of Dinah and the mother of Rose. We have established that Rose was indeed Dinah's niece and also discovered that the mysterious James was not a child of the Watsons nor of Rose's mother. The will indicates that Dinah kept in touch with both children and viewed them as significant people in her life, so from that point of view, my mission is accomplished.

              Thank you both for all your help and tenacity, your interest has kept me going Yes, I think there probably could be back story, but before 1841 and regular census returns, it's very difficult tracking who lived in a particular village at a certain time and nigh on impossible to discover the identity of their neighbours. James Watson's father and mother had both died before 1841.
              Janet in Yorkshire



              Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

              Comment


                #87
                Should have added that Robert Watson (John's father) got married to a third wife in 1832. In 1841 she was recorded as blacksmith, so running the business (or was the owner) In 1842 she married her third husband, William Wilson, who resided with Sarah in 1841, recorded as journeyman blacksmith. John did not live with them - I'm not sure where he was in 1841. I guess he didn't have the easiest of lives in his early years.

                Jay
                Janet in Yorkshire



                Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                Comment


                  #88
                  I saw that one Jay. I have dissected the families of Eliza Dibnah, John Watson and James Holiday. Can't see any reason why James H Dibnah was at home with Diana and John Watson in 1871 and being close enough to Diana to be remembered in her Will. Maybe some clues in James D Holiday's records..........?? Maybe no family connection at all. Perhaps boarded with Diana from the Guardians.

                  Vera

                  Comment


                    #89
                    was thinking his will maybe interesting as they have no children, but I can't find it! Can find Mary Anns, so feel certain he must have one.

                    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...7?pId=16798004

                    and here is the 1955 paper:

                    Screenshot 2020-10-16 at 09.01.53.png
                    Carolyn
                    Family Tree site

                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                    Comment


                      #90
                      John and Sarah Watson not with his half-sister Rachel in 1841 and 1851; nor with his sister Anna Maria in 1851
                      Janet in Yorkshire



                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                      Comment


                        #91
                        Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                        was thinking his will maybe interesting as they have no children, but I can't find it! Can find Mary Anns, so feel certain he must have one.

                        https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...7?pId=16798004

                        and here is the 1955 paper:

                        Screenshot 2020-10-16 at 09.01.53.png
                        I too searched for James D Holiday's Will. No luck. Wondered also if Eliza left a Will but couldn't see one. She died 1911 Patrington reg. Can't remember if there was one for James Snr.

                        Wonder if this could be John Watson 1841

                        Thorp Hall, Rudston, Bridlington

                        John Watson Servant 20 Born in County

                        In household of Alexander Bosville Magistrate b Ireland

                        Vera

                        Comment


                          #92
                          Thank you Vera - I had seen that and wondered. From memory, I think Harpham and Rudston are quite near each other.
                          (One of the Bosville family married a MacDonald and the head of the family became Lord MacDonald of Sleet. I think they still own Rudston Hall; Lord MacDonald was a governor at the High School I attended and there was an annual Lord MacDonald of the Isles prize awarded to any girl who was skilled at playing the large organ in the assembly hall. Isn't it funny what things stick in your mind?)

                          School, hall and organ long gone!
                          Janet in Yorkshire



                          Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                          Comment


                            #93
                            It's a good possibility Jay. I started to read up about Thorp Hall history and what it offers today. John and sister Anna Maria, if I have her correct, would have been very young when Catherine died, then Robert ?1835. I wonder who cared for them whilst Robert worked. As you say, John Watson probably had a difficult life. Doesn't seem to have been embraced by Sarah Stephenson

                            Well, were you the girl who won the prize? I like organ music.

                            Vera

                            Comment


                              #94
                              No, Vera. I never learned to play any instrument - music tuition was an optional extra and had to be paid for. The prize was very rarely awarded as so few girls were deemed worthy of playing the organ, although my friend was awarded the prize before she left our school to do a specialist music course. One of the Lord MacDonalds was very musical and he was the organist and choirmaster at Rudston church.
                              Janet in Yorkshire



                              Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                              Comment


                                #95
                                I do recall the music teacher telling me I was tone deaf or words to that effect. Didn't like the subject anyway although I do recall having a recorder for a while.

                                Just a snippet from the Witney Gazette and West Oxfordshire Advertiser 1900

                                Marriage Announcement

                                Holiday-Wilsdon 25th October

                                At the Parish Church Ducklington by the Rev W D Mackay

                                James D Holiday only son of the late James Holiday of Hull to Mary Ann Wilsdon daughter of the late Edwin Robert and Caroline Wilsdon, Manor Farm, Ducklington

                                Strange Eliza not mentioned

                                Vera

                                Comment


                                  #96
                                  Interesting, Vera. Also interesting that it says James Holiday of Hull, when the James Holiday we THINK was the father was in Lincolnshire in 1891 census (with wife and son) and his death was registered in Grantham Lincs a couple of years later.
                                  Janet in Yorkshire



                                  Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                  Comment


                                    #97
                                    Maybe not wanting to associate with Lincs. Another little snippet from

                                    Nottingham Evening Post 1887 has James of Shillington, nr Grantham declared bankrupt by Official Receiver on the 17 Au 1887 at Nottingham.

                                    James owed the bank a sum of money and the surety was some shares belonging to James which later lost their value. You would think a Bank Manager would know better. There was also some info about having lost money on the purchase of some hogs.

                                    On a lighter note. An article relating aspects of country life serialized in the

                                    Beverley Weekly of 1872 described James as 'a capital fellow, one of nature's Noblemen whom it is a pleasure to meet'

                                    Vera

                                    Comment


                                      #98
                                      A fascinating article, Vera, thank you. I see the gang in attendance that day included Lord MacDonald of Thorpe! James was into breeding/showing horses, I think, - several mentions of him at Lincolnshire agricultural shows in the early 1890's.

                                      Shame he's not actually any part of my friend's tree! Why is it that the "interesting" characters we come across hardly ever actually belong to the tree we are researching, be it our own or someone else's?

                                      Jay
                                      Janet in Yorkshire



                                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                      Comment


                                        #99
                                        I agree Jay, not found that much interesting about mine. Although gr grandfather did build cottages in gunwalloe after he moved away, and was seen as helping the village. I think he was involved in village bus too, must search again
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X