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    Help with Rose and James, please in 1881

    Here is Rose in 1861
    https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource
    I'm pretty sure that Mrs Watson is Rose's aunt, elder sister of Rose's mother Ann Ransom, nee Cook.

    I think this is probably the same girl in 1871 but now recorded as Mrs Watson's child, along with a "son" James. I don't think Mrs Watson gave birth to either child, but I reckon she brought them up.
    https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource

    John Watson died in Hull in 1878 and his widow Diana was recorded in Hull Holy Trinity in 1881. Both children had gone and she had a boarder living with her. She died in Hull in 1885.

    Can anyone spot Rose "Watson" in 1881? From 1891 onwards it seems she reverted back to being Rose Ransom(e) and I've tracked her and her four illegitimate children from 1891 until Rose's death in 1947. She never married.

    I can't get anywhere at all with James "Watson" - the only documentation I have for him is the 1871 census record, no baptism and no verified birth registration. Mrs Watson's birth name was Dinah Cook. Please don't waste your time on chasing her up as I already have quite a lot of information about her and her siblings. (If it helps, she married John Jefferson in 1840 and they had one child who did not reach adulthood. Mr Jefferson died and she married John Watson in 1857 - I haven't picked up on any children of the marriage.) Rose Ransom came from a dysfunctional family, lol, her mother had a difficult time and it seems her sister Dinah helped out.I have both the birth registration and baptism record for Rose Hannah Ransom(e)

    James is a bit of an enigma for me - I do wonder if he was actually Rose's brother or some other member of the extended family,
    All ideas welcome

    Jay
    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 27-08-20, 06:59.
    Janet in Yorkshire



    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

    #2
    Your links only work for people who subscribe to Ancestry.

    Comment


      #3
      I did have a look for Rose on FMP briefly couldn't locate her

      here are the details of the 2 Jay has:

      ​​​​​​Registration district: Hull
      Sub-registration district: Myton
      ED, institution, or vessel: 3
      Household schedule number: 8
      Piece: 3590
      Folio: 38
      Page Number: 2

      Ecclesiastical parish: Kirk Ella
      Town: Batonsville
      County/Island: Yorkshire
      Country: England
      Registration district: Sculcoates
      Sub-registration district: Hessle
      ED, institution, or vessel: 6
      Household schedule number: 22
      Piece: 4777
      Folio: 30
      Page Number: 4
      Carolyn
      Family Tree site

      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

      Comment


        #4
        Thank you for that Carolyn.
        I have tried searching Ancestry, FMP and also familysearch but can't find Rose Hannah in 1881 - (she's Rosamund Ransom in 1891 and is recorded in Great Driffield with three Ransom children.) Can't get any handle at all on James, apart from the 1871 census ref when he was recorded in Kirk Ella as James Watson , 8 yrs old, born Hull.

        Jay
        Janet in Yorkshire



        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

        Comment


          #5
          are you sure she never married
          ROSE HANNAH
          WATSON
          4
          1878
          -
          ROSE HANNAH WATSON married one of these people

          Charles Bray
          Howden
          -
          Yorkshire
          England
          9D
          9D
          179


          Val

          Comment


            #6
            1881 what about
            Rose H Rawson 1859 Bradford servant living at 40 North Road Bradford RG11 4451 44 17


            Val

            Comment


              #7
              Thank you Val.
              Unfortunately that lady doesn't seem to fit the bill. She was 25 when she married, making her birth c1853, and gave her father as Henry Clayton. I've found her in 1881 (Mrs Charles Bray) and the census record gives her as born at South Cave c1854. In 1871 she was recorded in Sutton (a part of Hull) working as a servant, born in South Cave c 1854, so cannot be the 12 year old girl who lived with John and Diana Watson in Kirk Ella in 1871.
              Bradford was quite a way away and the girl in 1881 census was recorded as born in Bradford. I've found her in the parental home in Bradford in 1871, so not my girl.


              Any takers for "James Watson" ???????
              Janet in Yorkshire



              Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

              Comment


                #8
                do you think this may be your James Watson in 1881

                https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=25973117

                sorry if its not , its been bugging me so am still looking

                shall list a few likely ones



                Val

                Comment


                  #9
                  is there anything to gleam from Rose's BC I assume it said Ransome and mmn Ransome? Was the address near the census that you have found? Just trying to pinpoint where James is likely to have been born if indeed her child.
                  Carolyn
                  Family Tree site

                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Val wish Id never started View Post
                    do you think this may be your James Watson in 1881

                    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=25973117

                    sorry if its not , its been bugging me so am still looking

                    shall list a few likely ones
                    Don't think so Val - he was recorded as born at York and there were earlier refs to a James born York. Trouble is I don't know that Watson was the birth surname of either child. I looked on the GRO birth index and couldn't see either a Rose or a James Watson, with mmn Cook, although I realise that not all births were registered at that time.
                    Thank you for keeping on trying.
                    Janet in Yorkshire



                    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                      is there anything to gleam from Rose's BC I assume it said Ransome and mmn Ransome? Was the address near the census that you have found? Just trying to pinpoint where James is likely to have been born if indeed her child.
                      If Rose is the same in both 1861 and 1871 census, then her birth was registered as Rose Hannah Ransome mmn Cook Q1 1858 York reg dist.
                      The mother of the Rose who was with the Watsons in 1861 was Ann birth name Cook, Mrs Robert Ransome. There was a daughter Ada before the marriage and then the Ransomes had Catherine (born Stamford Bridge 1853) Sarah Ann born at Holtby (1856) and Rose Hannah born at Holtby 1858). In 1861 census, the mother Ann was recorded in the workhouse at Clifton, York (Holtby is a village just outside York) also there were her children Ada, Catherine and Sarah - Rose Ransome was visiting with the Watsons.
                      Also in the workhouse was 5 week old Hannah Ransome, who we believe to have been the Ann Mary Ransome, d/o Ann Ransome (no mention of Robert) bp at Holtby 17 Mar 1861. There are two newspaper articles about Ann Ramsome's time at the workhouse - firstly that she was suffering from puerperal fever and was to be visited by the doctor on a daily basis and treated. If there was no improvement, then she was to be declared a lunatic and dealt with accordingly. A month later it was reported that she was responding to treatment and was improving.
                      The next event we know of was the 1852 birth of a son George W T Ransom mmn Cook in Driffield Reg Dist (no father named on BC) - Ann's mother lived in a village near Driffield and we think that when she was discharged from the workhouse, she went back to her relatives in that part of East Yorkshire.At the village where Ann's mother lived, an infant Mary Ann Ransome was buried in September 1861 - we can find no corresponding bp in the village for that child and think it could be Ann Mary bp at Holty and the baby Hannah in the workhouse census return. We haven't found a bp for GWTR, although all the other children had been baptised.We have not found any record of Ann's husband Robert Ransom(e) after the bp of Rose Hannah in February 1858.Don't know whether he died or whether Ann had mental health problems and so he left her. He was a joiner by trade.

                      When we found the 1871 census record for the Watsons with Rose, whom we assume probably to be Rose Ransome, and saw they also claimed to have a son James, we wondered if this was another child of Ann Cook Ransom, born after GWT Ransom(e.) Dinah Cook/ Diana Watson was born in 1823, so if she had given birth to the two children then she was getting on a bit and it seems a great coincidence that she should also have a child Rose about the same age as her niece. We can find no 1881 census entry for Rose Hannah Ransome. She reappeared in Driffield in 1891 with three illegitimate children , the birth of the eldest one having been around the time of Diana Watson's death.

                      We've managed to track through Ann's children Catherine,Sarah Ann and George William, so please don't anyone waste time looking into them. We haven't found out what became of Ada, but that could well be a subject for a future thread!

                      Hope that fills in the background for you, Carolyn.
                      Janet in Yorkshire



                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Should have said Dinah Cook was married firstly to John Jefferson in 1840. I also checked the GRO birth index for Ruth and James Watson mmn Jefferson in case there had been confusion of mmn due to the former marriage , but didn't find anything.

                        Jay
                        Janet in Yorkshire



                        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                        Comment


                          #13
                          It looks like you have extensively trawled everywhere, I have had a look for 1881 Hannah, to no avail. With regard to the 'watson' children did you look at Mr Watson and his siblings? could they have (or at least james) come from his side of the family.

                          Where was daughter Edith born it says Hull on 1901 census - is this incorrect? James also in 'born' in Hull. wondering if she was there for longer.

                          I guess you have got all the wills you can (I have not looked to see if any), if James was still around, he might get a mention.
                          Last edited by cbcarolyn; 31-08-20, 20:18.
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Edith's birth was registered in Hull in Q4 1885. The three later children were registered in Driffield reg dist between 1889 and 1893 - all registered as Ransom(e) no mmn given. All four children were bp en block at Drifield on Valentine's day 1900, children of Rose Hannah Ramsome.
                            Didn't see a will for either Mr or Mrs Watson, but that was as expected.
                            All of Ann Cook Ransom's known children were registered, as were the children of Rose Hannah and the child of the first marrriage of Dinah Cook, Mrs Jefferson. So, it seems very odd that if Mrs Watson had given birth to Rose and a son James that for some reason the births of the two children were not registered. My feeling that Rose Hannah Ransom and Rose Watson were the same person gets stronger ans stronger and I do find the apparent non birth registration and then disappearance of James somewhat suspicious.

                            Thank you for trying.
                            Janet in Yorkshire



                            Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Have been looking Jay. No luck so far for Rose.

                              There are Wills for John and Diana Watson

                              Diana dated 28 12 1885 died 12 12 1885
                              14 Constable St, Hesse Rd, Kingston up on Hull
                              Exec Joshua Tewson Auctioneer

                              and

                              John Watson 02 08 1878
                              Late Day St, Kingston upon Hull Dairy Farmer
                              Died 10 07 1878
                              Exec Dinah Watson Widow

                              Vera

                              Comment


                                #16
                                I have looked in papers hoping that the Watsons are mentioned, but not spotted anything. Is the farm in (1871) Parsley/Paisley Road? I am rubbish at reading writing!

                                https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...63?pId=9986747

                                Interesting that he moved from eating house to dairy farmer. My 'uncle' was a dairy farmer in Hull, and he went onto to run a frozen food shop that sold food by the weight in Kirkudbright, always amused me all the different jobs he had looking back. Was a trawlerman before that.

                                good find vera2013 it would be worth getting them at £1.50, so Dinah must have moved out of farm
                                Last edited by cbcarolyn; 01-09-20, 22:27.
                                Carolyn
                                Family Tree site

                                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                                  I have looked in papers hoping that the Watsons are mentioned, but not spotted anything. Is the farm in (1871) Parsley/Paisley Road? I am rubbish at reading writing!

                                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...63?pId=9986747

                                  Interesting that he moved from eating house to dairy farmer. My 'uncle' was a dairy farmer in Hull, and he went onto to run a frozen food shop that sold food by the weight in Kirkudbright, always amused me all the different jobs he had looking back. Was a trawlerman before that.

                                  good find vera2013 it would be worth getting them at £1.50, so Dinah must have moved out of farm
                                  Hello Carolyn

                                  Ancestry, Courts, Land, Wills and financial

                                  vera

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    where was Dinah in 1881, do you have that census, as she died in Hull assume she was also there in 1881? Ediths birth the same time as Dinah's death, in Hull.

                                    i hadn't looked at Dinah's death or address till now. Did you say you had the BC of Edith? what is the address?
                                    Carolyn
                                    Family Tree site

                                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                                      where was Dinah in 1881, do you have that census, as she died in Hull assume she was also there in 1881? Ediths birth the same time as Dinah's death, in Hull.

                                      i hadn't looked at Dinah's death or address till now. Did you say you had the BC of Edith? what is the address?
                                      I can't find Dinah/Diana on Ancestry. She is Walton on FMP dob 1821

                                      Vera

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        On FMP there is an entry for death duties, but no value in finding any connections, not seen this record entry before, surprised as it was only £61. Joshua Tewson also, no surprise.
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment

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