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    Chapmans and Illegitimacy

    Hello all,


    I've been doing genealogy as a hobby for 10 year now but it's only recently that I've started exploring my mother's London routes. However with one of the branches there is an illegitimate child and no father. Now the story starts with my great-great grandfather Henry Arthur Chapman (b. 6 Sept 1886 - d.7 Jan 1949). I have his birth record and so know his mother's name is Alice Chapman but from his birth in Peckham all the way to his marriage of Emily Minnie Church in 1909 he is nowhere to be found in any of the records that I can definitively say is him. I also know nothing about his mother Alice.

    On his marriage certificate he's put his father down as Henry Chapman - Deceased - Occupation: Clerk. I can find no evidence of any Henry Chapman.

    If anyone could help out with this conundrum I would be very thankful. Most attempts to find anything about them by other family members has always ended in failure.

    #2
    no sign of either Alice or Henry Arthur in 1901 census? but you have him in 1911?
    Carolyn
    Family Tree site

    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
      no sign of either Alice or Henry Arthur in 1901 census? but you have him in 1911?
      Yes he's married and living in Bermondsey working as a shipwright with his wife and young son.

      Comment


        #4
        https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcr...1%2F0005910376

        Could this be him in 1901. Born Peckham with Grandmother Elizabeth Chapman. She had a daughter Alice but surname frost. Widowed.
        Lin

        Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

        Comment


          #5
          there is a school record on AncestryName: Hy Arth ChapmanGender: Male
          Age: 8
          Birth Date: 6 Sep 1886
          Admission Date: 18 Mar 1895
          School: Colls Road School
          Notes: Colls Road School (0671) opened in 1951. Renamed Collingwood Secondary School in 1951. Amalgamated with Samuel Pepys School in 1982 to form Hatcham Wood School

          no fathers name 28 Stafford Street.

          https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...363.1543608453
          Last edited by cbcarolyn; 24-09-19, 19:50.
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
            there is a school record on AncestryName: Hy Arth ChapmanGender: Male
            Age: 8
            Birth Date: 6 Sep 1886
            Admission Date: 18 Mar 1895
            School: Colls Road School
            Notes: Colls Road School (0671) opened in 1951. Renamed Collingwood Secondary School in 1951. Amalgamated with Samuel Pepys School in 1982 to form Hatcham Wood School

            no fathers name 28 Stafford Street.

            https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...363.1543608453
            Thanks for this. It must be him as its the same date of birth in the same area. It's interesting Alice is not registered in name of parent at all. It's also strange about Staffordshire street as the only streets I know Alice lived or worked on were Sandison Street or Choumert Road which are both in Peckham but not that close to the school.

            Comment


              #7
              is the census correct that Lin found? It looked reasonable, she has children with her new name, and they were born in Tottenham. There might be school records for them, I didnt look very hard as wasn't sure if it was correct.
              Carolyn
              Family Tree site

              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                is the census correct that Lin found? It looked reasonable, she has children with her new name, and they were born in Tottenham. There might be school records for them, I didnt look very hard as wasn't sure if it was correct.
                I was thinking that that was Alice and Henry the only problem is the location. Both Stoke Newington and Tottenham are far away from the Peckham area. With Daisy being 13 years old as well it seems strange to abandon your son in Peckham for school in South London to travel to North London and start a new family.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Lin Fisher View Post
                  https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcr...1%2F0005910376

                  Could this be him in 1901. Born Peckham with Grandmother Elizabeth Chapman. She had a daughter Alice but surname frost. Widowed.
                  I've done a little more digging and that can't be him as a Henry Chapman appears in the 1911 census as a miller's salesman when my Henry Chapman has moved to Bermondsey as a shipwright.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    What about this from 1891?
                    19 Pilkington Road, Camberwell
                    Alice Chapman 26 Visitor b Marylebone
                    Harry Chapman 4 b Peckham
                    Percy Chapman 1 b Peckham


                    There were a couple of possible Percy Chapman births, including this:
                    CHAPMAN, FRANK PERCIVAL (no mmn) GRO Ref: 1890 M Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 937

                    Checking the school records brings up this for Colls Road School:

                    Frank P Chapman born 07 Jan 1890, admitted 24 Apr 1895, Father: John Chapman, Address: 28 Stafford Street

                    I have to leave for now, but perhaps someone can find a link.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by teasie View Post
                      What about this from 1891?
                      19 Pilkington Road, Camberwell
                      Alice Chapman 26 Visitor b Marylebone
                      Harry Chapman 4 b Peckham
                      Percy Chapman 1 b Peckham


                      There were a couple of possible Percy Chapman births, including this:
                      CHAPMAN, FRANK PERCIVAL (no mmn) GRO Ref: 1890 M Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 937

                      Checking the school records brings up this for Colls Road School:

                      Frank P Chapman born 07 Jan 1890, admitted 24 Apr 1895, Father: John Chapman, Address: 28 Stafford Street

                      I have to leave for now, but perhaps someone can find a link.
                      here is the link:
                      https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...9_213310-00500

                      he came from Albert street school same as Henry,

                      NB on the next page you can see that Henry left on either (or maybe both!) 6 Dec 1895 or 28 Jul 1896

                      I guess "john" is maybe just a name to put in the records?
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                        #12
                        this is the census:

                        https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...363.1543608453
                        Carolyn
                        Family Tree site

                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Back. Still can't link them as yet, but the OP mentions that Henry Arthur married Emily Minnie Church, and in 1911 they were in Bermondsey. This may well be one of their sons, making it highly likely that Frank Percival Chapman b1890 is either a brother or a close relative:

                          CHAPMAN, FRANK PERCIVAL mmn CHURCH
                          GRO Reference: 1913 M Quarter in ST. OLAVE (BERMONDSEY) Volume 01D Page 485

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Here is one tying them together I think

                            https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...=successSource

                            reg of electors - Henry and Frank and Emily Minnie

                            Just off out - so not fully checked!
                            Last edited by cbcarolyn; 25-09-19, 16:51.
                            Carolyn
                            Family Tree site

                            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                            Comment


                              #15
                              just realised posts have crossed, so probably son and not brother
                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                                just realised posts have crossed, so probably son and not brother
                                Yes Harry James and Frank Percival are both my Great Great Uncles

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  What do you make of the Frank Percival Chapman b 1890, who was at the same school, at the same time, using the same address, per my earlier posts?

                                  It may be worth ordering his birth certificate if all else fails.

                                  The 1891 census I mentioned has Alice Chapman & her two children visiting Agnes Coles & her children, and this is one of their births:
                                  COLES, ALICE MARY mmn CHAPMAN GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 09A Page 417

                                  A tree on Ancestry has Agnes Chapman b Cheltenham 1858 as the daughter of George Chapman & Elizabeth Edwards.

                                  This is them in 1881 in Camberwell, including daughter Alice Chapman
                                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...95/edit/record
                                  Last edited by teasie; 25-09-19, 17:17.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by teasie View Post
                                    What do you make of the Frank Percival Chapman b 1890, who was at the same school, at the same time, using the same address, per my earlier posts?

                                    It may be worth ordering his birth certificate if all else fails.

                                    The 1891 census I mentioned has Alice Chapman & her two children visiting Agnes Coles & her children, and this is one of their births:
                                    COLES, ALICE MARY mmn CHAPMAN GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 09A Page 417

                                    A tree on Ancestry has Agnes Chapman b Cheltenham 1858 as the daughter of George Chapman & Elizabeth Edwards.

                                    This is them in 1881 in Camberwell, including daughter Alice Chapman
                                    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...95/edit/record
                                    I am almost sure it's them. Choumert Road is the same road that my Alice Chapman lived on according to Henry's birth certificate. It's interesting to note Henry wasn't born on the road but rather a few streets down at Sandison street.

                                    Thank you for your help so far!

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by teasie View Post
                                      What do you make of the Frank Percival Chapman b 1890, who was at the same school, at the same time, using the same address, per my earlier posts?

                                      It may be worth ordering his birth certificate if all else fails.

                                      The 1891 census I mentioned has Alice Chapman & her two children visiting Agnes Coles & her children, and this is one of their births:
                                      COLES, ALICE MARY mmn CHAPMAN GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in HALIFAX Volume 09A Page 417

                                      A tree on Ancestry has Agnes Chapman b Cheltenham 1858 as the daughter of George Chapman & Elizabeth Edwards.

                                      This is them in 1881 in Camberwell, including daughter Alice Chapman
                                      https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...95/edit/record
                                      I've also ordered Franks Birth certificate to see if he too was born with no father named on the certificate.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        There is no father named on Frank's birth certificate.

                                        OC

                                        Comment

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