Chapmans and Illegitimacy

[MJLCarr]

There is no father named on Frank's birth certificate.

OC

Hello OC,
Do you have access to the certificate?

[teasie]

Hello OC,
Do you have access to the certificate?

There is no mother's maiden name listed on the GRO indexes, which indicates an illegitimate birth.

[Olde Crone Holden]

As teasie says, there is no mother's maiden name listed on the GRO index and that indicates an illegitimate birth.

OC

[cbcarolyn]

is this the 1901 census: Agnes is right age and birthplace, so possibly remarried, and Henry now apprentice shipbuilder, I don't think this has been found. No sign of Frank or Alice

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7814/LNDRG13_505_506-0460?pid=3811763&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D7814%26h%3D3811763%26tid%3D161314848%26pid%3D222131960784%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DfVi15182%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=161314848&personid=222131960784&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi15182&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.21422651.1606143385.1569318737-1485122363.1543608453

Name: Henry Chapman
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation to Head: Nephew
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Peckham, London, England
Civil Parish: Camberwell
Search Photos: Search for 'Camberwell' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
County/Island: London
Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Peckham
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Piece: 506
Folio: 53
Page Number: 42
Household schedule number: 278

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Rifflart 60
Agnes Rifflart 42
Charles Alfred Rifflart 2
Henry Chapman 14

[teasie]

Oooh, great find!!!

Charles Rifflart married in 1899 and there are 5 names on the page rather than the usual four, including Agnes CHAPMAN and Agnes COLES.

Son Charles Alfred Rifflart's birth has the mmn of CHAPMAN.

[teasie]

Ive been patiently waiting for Ancestry to start working again, and it was worth it!

In 1911 The Rifflart's are at 23 King Arthur Street, Peckham, and I knew I'd seen that address before - it's the one Henry Arthur Chapman gave when he married Emily Minnie Church in 1909.

Brilliant find cbcarolyn, and ties it all together.

[cbcarolyn]

Good to tie them all together.

Still no sign of Alice, or Frank. I did notice that Agnes' girls are on some ancestry trees going to Canada. I don't have WW ancestry, did wonder if Alice, maybe even Frank went with them. As I can't see any deaths for them.

I am in Lille for a few days, been waiting for rain to stop, and interesting ancestry working well, maybe on a different server!

[MJLCarr]

Good to tie them all together.

Still no sign of Alice, or Frank. I did notice that Agnes' girls are on some ancestry trees going to Canada. I don't have WW ancestry, did wonder if Alice, maybe even Frank went with them. As I can't see any deaths for them.

I am in Lille for a few days, been waiting for rain to stop, and interesting ancestry working well, maybe on a different server!

without wishing to seem too morbid would it be possible to that something bad happened to them? I mean Henry named his second child Frank Percival? It would also explain why he's gone to live with his aunt and uncle whilst they have dropped off the radar. What I don't understand is how Alice managed to look after the two boys without a husband or a job.

[Olde Crone Holden]

How do you know she didn't have a job? Or a man, lol. People's needs were a lot less back then and as long as you could pay the rent and buy a few potatoes and a bit of firewood, that was all you needed really.

On the other hand, you cannot tell from census records alone what they suffered or how they managed to survive day to day.

OC

[cbcarolyn]

that is probably why she was with her sister at times, as they shared childcare? Also why I wondered if she went to Canada as they were close.

Odd that there are no obvious deaths either. She could have married too, but can't find one.

[teasie]

It looks like Albert John Coles joined the army in 1897 aged 14 years & 9 months, and then deserted 25 May 1899. He is therefore likely to be hard to trace!

Nellie Agnes (born Agnes Nellie) married Charles Lewis Manley in Welland, Ontario in 1928. The certificate confirms her parents as John Coles & Agnes Chapman. Her residence at marriage was Buffalo, NY, and there are records of her travelling to and from the UK to US, quoting her address in the UK as c/o her mother at 23 King Arthur Street, Asylum Road, Peckham. A witness was John Murrell, and the grooms parents were George William Manley & Mary Ellen Murrell.

An Alice Mary Coles married Frederick Murrell 5 Aug 1903 in Lincoln, Ontario. No parents were given for the bride and it instead says “Was not able to tell. In Canada from a child”.

Nellie is in Buffalo on the 1920 & 1925 census as a maid, and in both she indicates she has been in the US since 1904. In 1915 it looks like she is a maid in Wellsville, Allegany, NY

Searching Canadian records, aboard the Sardinian departing Liverpool on 9 Mar 1893, travelling as a party with the Maria Rye Homes & arriving Halifax 19 Mar 1893 with a final destination of Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario were the following:
Alice Coles 7
Agnes Coles 9

I’ve looked for Frank Percival Chapman, but the nearest I can find is a departure 28 May 1910 aboard the Sicilian with a party from Barnardo Homes & arriving Quebec 10 Jun 1910 heading for Toronto, Ontario: Frank Chapman aged 11

The archives mention that the August 1918 edition of Barnardo’s ‘Ups & Downs” magazine (Vol 21, page 12) mentions Frank Chapman who arrived 1910 in the Roll of Honour (Canadian Overseas Force), and in the same issue, at page 32, they publish a letter from Frank Chapman. However, two Frank Chapman’s arrived 1910, so it may not be him.

I have to go out for a while, so hopefully others will pick up the search.....

[cbcarolyn]

I’ve looked for Frank Percival Chapman, but the nearest I can find is a departure 28 May 1910 aboard the Sicilian with a party from Barnardo Homes & arriving Quebec 10 Jun 1910 heading for Toronto, Ontario: Frank Chapman aged 11

I have to go out for a while, so hopefully others will pick up the search.....

I spotted another ship last night, from Liverpool July 18 1901, but I couldn't work out why so many children on board, assumed them to be orphans :( I decided he would have been taken in by Agnes if orphaned, and a long way from Liverpool! in 1910 Frank was 20

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2997/40610_B000351-00217?pid=37508937&treeid=161314848&personid=222132118565&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fVi15465&_phstart=successSource#?imageId=40610_B000351-00217

[MJLCarr]

How do you know she didn't have a job? Or a man, lol. People's needs were a lot less back then and as long as you could pay the rent and buy a few potatoes and a bit of firewood, that was all you needed really.

On the other hand, you cannot tell from census records alone what they suffered or how they managed to survive day to day.

OC

Very true I do see the name Henry popping up in this thread quite a bit and Henry Arthur Chapman does mention a Henry on his marriage Certificate. Perhaps he knew his father. I suppose too that it seems the Chapman's were living in a middle-class area of London so she might've been supported by them. What i'm also confused about is why Henry Arthur seems to have been born in the Nearby Sandison Street even though Alice still says she is living at the family home in Choumert road? Also why they seem to be moving so often in such a short space of time!

[teasie]

in 1910 Frank was 20

Oops, I think I mentally transposed the last two digits and deducted 1890 from 1901.

I'd spotted that 1901 sailing too but then forgot to go back to it, so Im glad you posted it. Ship Numidian, departure 18 July 1901.
From the London Evening Standard 19 July 1901:

"The National Waif's Association (Dr Barnardo's Homes) yesterday despatched 331 boys from Paddington for Canada via Liverpool. The lads sailed in the Numidian, of the Allan line."

[Olde Crone Holden]

Well, you are born where you are born, lol. Maybe she went into labour at a friend's s house, or maybe the friend's house was a better place to give birth. Do you have a house number?

Poor people moved a lot, either because they were evicted or because they couldn't pay the rent so.just did a moonlight flit. They also moved to better or worse accommodation as their income fluctuated or their needs changed.

OC

[cbcarolyn]

Very true I do see the name Henry popping up in this thread quite a bit and Henry Arthur Chapman does mention a Henry on his marriage Certificate. Perhaps he knew his father. I suppose too that it seems the Chapman's were living in a middle-class area of London so she might've been supported by them. What i'm also confused about is why Henry Arthur seems to have been born in the Nearby Sandison Street even though Alice still says she is living at the family home in Choumert road? Also why they seem to be moving so often in such a short space of time!

I would plot all the siblings and parents addresses, she may be staying with them also. You might find same addresses cropping up.

[cbcarolyn]

Oops, I think I mentally transposed the last two digits and deducted 1890 from 1901.

I'd spotted that 1901 sailing too but then forgot to go back to it, so Im glad you posted it. Ship Numidian, departure 18 July 1901.
From the London Evening Standard 19 July 1901:

"The National Waif's Association (Dr Barnardo's Homes) yesterday despatched 331 boys from Paddington for Canada via Liverpool. The lads sailed in the Numidian, of the Allan line."

so if this was 'our' Frank it is likely that Alice died? or was in workhouse, I feel we should be able to find her somewhere.

331 boys to Canada - I can't help feeling sad seeing this, but maybe they did have better lives? seeing some of the recent stories about Aus where they were used as cheap hard labour.

Did they pick up boys from all over London, as Paddington not on the doorstep, but not that far.

[teasie]

It doesnt really help, but I think this may be Agnes/Nellie Coles in 1901 in Peel, Ontario. DoB as 30 Nov 1883, England, and in Canada since 1892

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8826/z000094060?pid=6514153&treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=suT26023&_phstart=successSource

If the Agnes & Alice Coles travelling with Maria Rye Homes in 1893 are Agnes's daughters then she was clearly struggling by then, so Alice may well have been in a similar position.

Re the Paddington reference for the 1901 sailing, I think this may just have been where the Barnardo's home was. Probably needs further research.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Dr Barnado went all over London gathering up children that HE thought were being neglected and sent them off to the commonwealth countries. Some of those children did indeed have better lives but that was sheer luck, nothing to do with the scheme. A shameful chapter in British history.

OC

[teasie]

The records for Camberwell look like they are mainly at the London Metropolitan Archives: http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Camberwell/