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    Catholic marrying in a C of E?

    Hi

    I have the marriage of my 4x great grandparents marrying in a C of E church. Would a Catholic have been able to marry there? I have been trying to find out a little bit more about my Irish ancestors (an Irish baptism has been found on LDS) and now have this marriage taken place in a C of E church. Do you think its likely they werent Catholics? (the groom has the Irish parents, the brides parents by the looks of it were C of E by where they married). The only reason i presumed they were catholics is that my nan is. Niether side of the family were witnesses

    Many thanks
    Robyne


    Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

    #2
    When was this?

    I don't know when it stopped but everyone had to marry in a C of E church at one time, excepting Jews and Quakers I believe.

    I'm sure someone will tell you when this law changed.

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      #3
      I only know that my friends gt grandparents married in Ireland, she was catholic and he protestant, and they were not allowed to marry in either church and had to be married in the porch of the local church. Don't know if that helps
      Jean



      To forget your ancestors is to be a brook without a source, a tree without a root....

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        #4
        Originally posted by jean View Post
        I only know that my friends gt grandparents married in Ireland, she was catholic and he protestant, and they were not allowed to marry in either church and had to be married in the porch of the local church. Don't know if that helps
        oh my goodness!! the marriage was in 1895, the Irish birth in 1868, although doesnt list the church but i thought that RC records were only available through the church?
        Robyne


        Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

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          #5
          Your 4 x GGPs married in 1895???

          Mine married mid 1700s.....

          *reaches for zimmer and staggers slowly off thread*

          OC

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            #6
            Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
            Your 4 x GGPs married in 1895???

            Mine married mid 1700s.....

            *reaches for zimmer and staggers slowly off thread*

            OC
            :D ive just taken stock and they are actually my 2x great grandparents, although i do have a set of 4x great grandparents that married in the 1850's
            Robyne


            Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

            Comment


              #7
              Phew!

              *chucks zimmer out of window*

              OC

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                #8
                Something a bit more helpful...in mixed faith marriages, the couple often decide to raise the boys as Catholics and the girls as protestant, or vice versa. Often the RC partner "wins" and all the children are brought up in the faith.

                You don't say where this marriage took place. A catholic who marries out of his faith is considered by the RC church not to be married anyway.

                They may have married in both churches of course.

                OC

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                  #9
                  Are we talking about Rep of Ireland here? I have a stack of Irish family who were not Catholic, from the north.

                  My Kerry lot were all Catholic though.

                  Not sure about C of E, but with mixed marriages in the Catholic church, they used to perform them if the priest agreed, but not usually in front of the altar.

                  I have quite a few family from Lancashire who I have no idea about. Some books have them as Catholic, some C of E, and I know one group were Quakers, but so far the marriages were in C of E.

                  I take it the marriage was in England? I know you can get Catholic records in Ireland, so might be worth a try to get the baptism record.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    What does the wording on the cert say? Does it say married by the "rite and ceremonies of the Established church?"

                    I had a Catholic friend who married a C of E chap. They married in the C of E church (which if you live in the parish you have a right to do, regardless of your faith) but she had two priests from the Catholic church who performed a blessing after the marriage ceremony.
                    ~ with love from Little Nell~
                    Chowns, Dunt, Emms, Mealing, Purvey & Smoothy

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I have two interesting oddities in marriages, none of which help you really, but may be they illustrated the some things just have no explanation to our modern thinking.

                      1. A man in our family remarried (to a woman less than half his age). They married in the chapel of an RC school, what makes this so strange is his son was a CofE minister, who officiated at many family events.

                      2. Another part of the family claims their ancestor changed his name from READ to GURREN because it sounded "more Irish", supposing that they lived in an Irish enclave in Sydney. However, the man in question was right to use his mothers name (GURREN) as it appears his parents never married. One assumes his new wife's family was catholic, but they married in the home of the CofE minister, and some of their children were buried in the RC cemetery, so I guess they were raised as catholic. Were they more concerned with religion than illegitimacy ?

                      Then there are those Jewish people whose children are buried in the RC cemetery, I don't know where or when or why, the change occurred. It can be so confusing




                      Diane
                      Diane
                      Sydney Australia
                      Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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                        #12
                        OOOOHH!!!!!!!!!!
                        What about the Jewish buried in the RC cemetery????????????????


                        I'm trying to work one out at the moment.


                        Sorry for hijacking the thread.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Hi Libby

                          The children of the Jewish couple were adults when they passed away, so I assume they chose their own religion when they were old enough. Still very strange ....

                          Diane
                          Diane
                          Sydney Australia
                          Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Thanks Diane....

                            Mine was a 16 year old Jewish girl (wealthy parents, so didn't have to marry) marrying a Catholic in Sydney in 1897. She died the following year and is buried in Rookwood in the RC section after a RC funeral. Love to find the story.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Back in 1895 in Uk (and ireland was still part of UK at that point) there would have been very strict guidlines as to how and when and why you were getting married within RC faith if one partner was Cof E. The C of E partner would have been asked to agree to any children being brought up in the Catholic faith. There would have been no "Nuptial Mass", just an ordinary quick service just to show how much Rome frowned upon this happening!!Readily agreed to at marriage, this bringing up of children within the Catholic faith was often flouted by the couple when they eventually had children. I know it was with my Great Grandparents and as already said when flouted, then boys were often brought up with religion of father and girls brought up with religion of the mother. Not bringing up the children in RC faith, thereby breaking marriage vow. could also have been cited later on as a cause for annullment!! So many subtle ways of RC getting out of marriage without a divorce!!!

                              Janet

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                                #16
                                The marriage was in St Mary's church in Liverpool. It was performed after Banns, although for some reason the father is down as Peter rather than Patrick, not sure why though. As the births of their children are late, i havent been able to find any baptisms via LDS or actually for any of them other than this Irish baptism of the eldest child. Although that doesnt say anything about a church, just Wicklow
                                Robyne


                                Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Robyne

                                  Sorry, I have just realised you have got your folk other way around, a Catholic getting married in Cof E! Right, Cof E female more likely to get her way in marriage and would want it to be where she wanted it in Cof E Church! Groom would have agreed, as he was probably not bothered at that point, but when children are born he is torn with guilt! Now wants them baptised RC even if not bringing them up RC but he can't have them baptised in RC Church in Liverpool because he would have to produce his Marriage Cert for proof of marriage in Catholic Church, and that he was bringing them up as Catholics. However, he could hop back to Ireland and have them baptised there as Catholics, possibly no questions aked.

                                  Father down as Peter and not Patrick! Well, Liverpool was very keen on its Orange Marches back in 1895 and could be very anti Catholic back then. It did mirror the Catholic V Protestant in mainly the Northern part of Ireland, though over Ireland generally you always had this antagonism between the two religions, although of recent years has been much more in the North than the South. If he was marrying into a very fiercely C of E family then Peter is a much more English sounding name than a Patrick and remember that Patrick could be translated to "Paddy" and very obviously Irish Catholic and sounding inferior!! If you can think back to what the term Paddy meant it was not a term of endearment in those days!

                                  Neither side being witnesses would suggest possible hostility on both sides, which I would have expected at that time in Liverpool. Much bigotry on both sides for mixed marriages.

                                  Janet
                                  Last edited by Janet; 11-06-08, 12:03.

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                                    #18
                                    ooh its like Romeo and Juliet!! although not quite as glamourous!!!
                                    Robyne


                                    Name interests: Alderton, Osborne, Danslow, Hanley, Bowkett, Lakin, Elliott, Banner, Walters, Reed, Deighton, Sleight, Dungar ;)

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Yes, you have got it in one. In fact there is a series of books written on this very subject by Joan Lingard, but for the life of me I cannot remember the titles of the books and I was a school librarian once upon a time promoting these books as a must read for tolerance! They were ostensibly children's books but I enjoyed them as an adult. Gave you a lot of understanding on this Catholic/Protestant Romeo and Juliet stuff in Ireland. Just remembered one of the books was called "Twelth Day of July"!

                                      Janet
                                      Last edited by Janet; 11-06-08, 16:22.

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                                        #20
                                        I believe that the Irish name Padraig, pronounced Patrick, translates into English as Peter (both words mean "a rock" in their own language).

                                        As Janet says, lots of Patricks became Peter, out of expediency when living in England.

                                        OC

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