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Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 08:47
I am trying to work out if my brick wall Tomlinsons are connected to a tree on Genes. I have,

John Tomlinson born Belper Derbyshire c1842, from census as birth not found

John Tomlinson aged 21 married to Mary Spencer 1863 father of John is George Tomlinson on the cert

I have not been able to go back before the 1861 census.


My contact says John Tomlinson born Derbyshire 1844, is on the 1851 census with his parents John born 1811 and Elizabeth born 1826 and grandmother Hannah. This is the third marriage for this John b. 1811, so there are siblings and step siblings.

Myself i cannot see John born Belper 1842 and John born Derbyshire 1844 as the same man, but my contact has Mary Spencer as the wife and most of thier children with the right birthdates and places.

Has my contact got her Johns mixed up, she says her grandfather was my John`s brother and i haven`t found any siblings as yet.

Do i open my tree in case or not.

Any suggestions would be welcome please

Sylvia

Lyn A
23-12-07, 09:22
I would not open my tree!

They don't sound like the same man to me, and I would want to see more documented proof first.
It does sound to me that there could have been a cross over somewhere.

What is George's occupation listed as on John's marriage cert?

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 09:25
Thank you Lyn, he is a blacksmith, though i have never been able to find him.

Lyn A
23-12-07, 09:38
I will have a look & see if I can sight him....be warned, my geography of the UK is not very good, though!

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 09:45
Derbyshire is in the middle of England Lyn

Lyn A
23-12-07, 09:46
I can't see George Tomlinson, blacksmith, either. Only one I can find is an Ag Lab.
How far is Norton from Belper?

Lyn A
23-12-07, 09:54
Sorry can't find any others....fingers crossed that someone else can.

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 09:55
Think its about 26 miles according to google

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 09:56
Thank you for trying Lyn.

Little Nell
23-12-07, 10:01
I'd ask your contact if she has birth details for her John to confirm 1844 as birthyear, and if she has John with father George in 1851.

Little Nell
23-12-07, 10:03
Have you found your John from 1861 onwards on censuses and is he consistent about age and birthplace?

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 10:06
Thank you for your opinion Nell, will ask her about the birth details, but she says 1851 has father John, mother Elizabeth and grandmother Hannah

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 10:14
I have John on every census from 1861 until his death in 1895 (i have cert) evey one say Belper, but unless you look at the actual images the dates vary.

That is the images give his right age for being born 1842, but the transriptions don`t, which say 1842, 1844 or 1850.

Little Nell
23-12-07, 10:17
1851 census has a John Tomlinson, ag lab, wife Elizabeth, and John, son aged 6 (birthyear abt 1845) born in Matlock.

Matlock in 1845 came under Bakewell registration district and this would appear to be the corresponding birth for 1851 census:
John Tomlinson 1844 Apr-May-Jun Bakewell
Volume: 19 Page: 401

Little Nell
23-12-07, 10:20
1861 census has John Tomlinson b 1842 Belper, servant in Norbury, and John Tomlinson b 1841 Norton with father George in Norton. Neither of these look like John from 1851, but I can't find one that fits him.

Little Nell
23-12-07, 10:22
1871 has John b 1844 Belper with wife Mary. So he has YOUR birthplace and your CONTACT's birthyear. Hence the confusion! I see this couple have a son called George which may or may not be significant!

Can't see them 1881, but John and Mary in 1891 still give birthplace and year as Belper 1844.

Are you getting your John's birthyear 1842 from his marriage cert?

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 10:25
!861 has my John working as a groom for the rector of Norbury and as everything i have on him (census and police career records) say he was born in Belper, i don`t think that one is mine.

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 10:27
That 1871 census is mine Nell

Little Nell
23-12-07, 10:29
Well he does say born 1844, doesn't he? Perhaps he lied when he got married as he would have been underage? Though that doesn't explain the confusion over John/George and Bakewell/Belper!

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 10:33
Are you getting your John's birthyear 1842 from his marriage cert?

No Nell from the actual census images which show his right age.

Lyn A
23-12-07, 10:51
No Nell from the actual census images which show his right age.

No, Gert... 1871 images definitely says 27 (b. abt 1843/44) and 1881 clearly says 37 (b. abt 1843/44)
In 1861, he may have lied about his age to get the job, or his employer may have just guessed.

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 11:03
You are right Lyn, just checked the Time Line i have written on him and he also joined the police force on Sept 20 1875 aged 32

He died June 25 1895 aged 51 years and 7 Months, which would put his birth some where in the 4th quarter

Lyn A
23-12-07, 11:08
I do wish that we could find George, though.

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 11:11
I have been looking for George off and on for over 12 months now.

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 11:16
The only reference to a George Tomlinson a blacksmith was in 1889, when he was charged for being drunk and disorderly in Sawley Derbyshire, but as it didn`t give an age, i`m not sure its the same George

Lyn A
23-12-07, 11:48
1889...that sounds more like he could be John's son, rather than father. But you never know!! LOL!!

I have searched & re-searched 1851 for a George, Blacksmith, without any joy. I also looked for a John, just in case your contact is right and he was calling himself John in 1851. No joy there, either....can't recall coming across the family your contact mentions with grandmother Hannah, either......
....Sorry, yes I did. Just missed seeing Grandma!! LOL

Lyn A
23-12-07, 11:57
I would still be very wary, unless she can provide documentation. I have helped to unravell a couple of really mixed up trees...both of them took months and many headaches. Both times I really thought that I would go nuts before we got it sorted.

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 12:04
John`s son George born 1866 was a picture frame maker.

Thank you for trying to help Lyn, i might have to put this away again, until something else peeks my interest

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 12:08
I will be careful Lyn, i have asked her to confirm where her grandfather William and my grandfather John was Born.

Lyn A
23-12-07, 12:29
Did you know that there was a marriage for a George Tomlinson in 1840 in Belper? Dec Qtr 1840 19 / 385.

Wonder if he was a Blacksmith?

Ozzie Gert
23-12-07, 12:52
I have that on some notes i`ve just come across, not sure why i haven`t followed it up, maybe because i couldn`t find him on the census as a blacksmith

KiteRunner
23-12-07, 17:35
It sounds to me as though your contact has just traced him back through the censuses and GRO indexes rather than by getting certificates, so I would certainly be dubious about any info from their tree.

Have you already tried to trace the "other" John (the one who seems to be the son of a John instead of a George) forwards to see if he appears elsewhere on the census(es) that you have your John on?

Ozzie Gert
24-12-07, 06:54
Thank you for your interest Kite, yes John born 1864, in Derby the son of my John born 1842? in Belper, he married a Beatrice Sarah Brown in 1890 in Kent, then both parents abandoned their 5 children around 1902, as they were put into an orphanage, i am in touch with 2 of this couples gt grandaughters, but they know as much as than i do. John Died in Derby in 1841, but we have never found a death for Beatrice.

Ozzie Gert
24-12-07, 07:11
I have just had another message from my contact and her grandfather was the one born in Matlock that Nell and Lyn found, so not the same man.

I still can`t work out how this contact has the same names and dates of birth of the children of my John and Mary, unless she has married her John to the wrong person.

Thank you all for your help.

Sylvia

KiteRunner
24-12-07, 12:03
Sorry, Sylvia, I think my reply may have been confusing - either that or I have misunderstood the thread! I thought you had a John who was the son of George, but you had found a possible on the censuses, the right age, but whose father was John instead of George? All I was really trying to ask was whether you had tried looking for that one on the later censuses to see if there really were two Johns?

samesizedfeet
24-12-07, 14:22
Is the only reference you have to his father on his marriage certificate?

i.e. you've not found him in any census with parents at all?

I'd be inclined to think that this could be an illegitimate birth and George is a figment of his imagination for his wedding. or George is a stepfather and the water shave been muddied on the marriage certificate.

Have you done a trawl of all people born Belper give or take a year or two to see how many possibles it throws up for him being giving his stepfathers name on census by mistake.

Ozzie Gert
25-12-07, 06:36
Kite...you are right, John Tomlinson born Belper c1842? has George Tomlinson as his father on his marriage cert, John also had a son, John William Tomlinson born Derby 1864, who i thought you meant i had traced through the census.

The earliest i have found John Tomlinson born 1842? is on the 1861 census, working as a groom for the Rector of Norbury aged 19.

1863.. he marries Mary Spencer age 21
1871... he is an Ostler in Derby age 27
1875.. joins Derby police force age 32
1881...Police constable age 36
1891...police constable age 47
1895..dies in June age 51 years and 7 months

Unfortunatly the police records i have do not give a birth date.

Sylvia

Ozzie Gert
25-12-07, 06:53
Zoe.. the only reference i have of George Tomlinson is on Johns marriage cert

I have not found John with parents or siblings on any census, not sure if he has any siblings.

I have trawled through Belper, several times looking for both George and John, BMDs and census.

The only possible baptism i found on the IGI, for John was an adult in 1861 in Norbury and Roston, which only listed a mother Mary. Someone checked this at Derby RO for me and he was 19 and a labourer, but no father was listed.

Lyn A
25-12-07, 09:26
I have that on some notes i`ve just come across, not sure why i haven`t followed it up, maybe because i couldn`t find him on the census as a blacksmith


I just wondered if he might have been the Blacksmith.
There are a few deaths in the 1840s that could be George, so his wife may have remarried by 1851 and John could have been enumerated under his stepfather's name.
Hust a thought.

Ozzie Gert
25-12-07, 11:17
Thats a possibility i hadn`t thought of Lyn, any ideas how to find someone like that.

I even tried looking for Blacksmiths called George Tomlinson in Derbyshire in 1841, without any luck, so either he wasn`t there yet or wasn`t born there.

Sylvia

Lyn A
25-12-07, 11:27
Yes, I looked in 1841 at all George Tomlinsons and couldn't see a blacksmith.

As to your other question...the only way I can think of is to check 1851 for all Johns b. Belper 1844 +/-2yrs and see if anything seems obvious...llike 2x 7yr olds or a big gap between John & the next older/younger child. And maybe even looking for a marriage between 1842 & 1851 for all the heads of household and see if any married a someone Tomlinson. Could be long winded.

Ozzie Gert
25-12-07, 11:46
Thanks Lyn, i can see a long trawl ahead of me in the new year, when i get back on Ancestry, at least it will keep me out of mischief. LOl