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    Can't find a Birth Registration

    Hello,

    I've been trying to follow Richard Kean, Born Hulme, Manchester 1860.

    I've had lots of wonderful help on here with finding him on the Censuses.

    I've now found a Baptism for him at The Roman Catholic Church of St Wilfred's, Hulme, Manchester.

    Many words are in Latin, - his name is given as 'Ricardus Kean'. The Parents are right, - Richard Kean and Frances Butler.

    The Baptism was on the 22nd April, and the Notes say that his DOB was the 23rd February 1860.

    I want to order a Birth Cert, - the problem is that I can't find a GRO ref for this Birth:-(

    Any help welcomed!

    Holly.

    #2
    Hi Holly, I cant find anything either, is this the marriage of his parents: Marriage Record for Richard Kean
    in the District of Chorlton
    Name Richard Kean
    District Chorlton, Lancashire
    Spouse Frances Butler
    Page 0591
    Volume 8C
    Registered October - December 1855
    Robert

    Comment


      #3
      Hi Holly,
      It's likely that the birth wasn't registered. I remember looking for this before. Registration didn't become compulsory until 1875.
      Last edited by Katarzyna; 29-07-19, 10:58.
      Kat
      My avatar is my Great Grandmother, Cassandra Elizabeth Palmer 1861 to 1940

      Comment


        #4
        May Catholics at this time were much more interested in having a child baptised rather than paying to have the birth registered by the state so yes there is a great possibilty the child was never registered. Are these people from Ireland?

        Janet

        Comment


          #5
          Many Thanks for the replies.

          I just wanted to check that I wasn't missing something.

          The Baptism and the notes give me both the DOB and the Baptismal dates, and I have the Parent's names and address. I just wanted to order a Birth Certificate for the sake of completeness!

          Yes Janet, both the Butler's and the Keans came to Manchester from Ireland.

          This explains why I have so much Irish DNA!

          Holly.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Holly View Post
            Many Thanks for the replies.

            I just wanted to check that I wasn't missing something.

            The Baptism and the notes give me both the DOB and the Baptismal dates, and I have the Parent's names and address. I just wanted to order a Birth Certificate for the sake of completeness!

            Yes Janet, both the Butler's and the Keans came to Manchester from Ireland.

            This explains why I have so much Irish DNA!

            Holly.
            I asked about possible Irish connection because there was so much backward and forward movement to Ireland that it might be possible that the birth occurred in Ireland as 23 February Birth to 22 April Baptism is quite a long time for a Catholic baptism as most Irish Catholics were baptised witghin a few days of birth so two months is a very long time. Unfortunately because it is 1860 if it will be an Irish Parish birth which means you are going to be looking at Irish Parish Records. These are online through Dublin NL though not digitised but can be available at FMP which are digitised so worth a look though not all Irish baps have been sent to repository and many still with churches across Ireland so it would help to know at least which county they are from. Kilkenny/Tipperary is Butler country with Butler being protestant. Is there a chance of one RC and one Cof Ireland hence the tardy baptism.

            Although pre `1864 are Bap records they still record the birth as well and also parents names and sponsors.>

            Janet
            Last edited by Janet; 29-07-19, 12:35.

            Comment


              #7
              These are the Baptismal Records:

              Records from St. Wilfrid's Roman Catholic church Hulme (Name spellings of Kean/Keane/Kain & Cain).
              All names are in Latin.

              St Wilfrid's, Bedford Street, Hulme (closed in 1990).

              Child: Maria Anna Cain
              Baptised: 1st Jun 1856
              Father: Ricardi Cain
              Mother: Franciscae Butler
              Godfather: Patricius Hanley
              Godmother: Sarah Finherty
              Notes: Born 15th May 1856

              Child: Thomas Cain.
              Baptised: 27th May 1858
              Father: Richardi Cain.
              Mother: Franciscae Buckley of: 11 Lime street.
              Godfather: Not named
              Godmother: Anna Conroy
              Notes: Born 13th May 1858.

              Child: Ricardus Kean
              Baptised: 22nd Apr 1860
              Father: Ricardi Kean.
              Mother: Francescae Butler of: 76 Queen street, Hulme.
              Godfather: Not named
              Godmother: Sarah Finnerty.
              Notes: Born 23rd Feb. 1860.

              I suspect that they thought that the Baptisms were 'enough', - and didn't also Register the Births.

              And so were I to try and order a Birth Cert from the GRO, - I suspect that none would be found.

              Holly.

              Comment


                #8
                That is probably correct Holly though what I was trying to say previously was that the birth may have taken place in Ireland and possibly baptised in a Churh of Ireland Church and then baptised again in Manchester in a catholic Chuech. This could happen if one party was C of I or E and the other one RC. The Dublin NA is the place to look for Protestant births.

                Janet
                Last edited by Janet; 29-07-19, 13:07.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yes Janet, - I think that the Butlers were Protestants. (From Antrim if I'm remembering correctly).

                  Thanks, Holly.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    for reference for searchers.

                    Sarah Kean mmn Butler born 1862 Hulme reference HUL/103/21
                    Frances Kean mmn Butler born 1863 Hulme " HUL/114/73
                    John Kean mmn Butler born 1865 Hulme HUL/126/60

                    on Lancashire BMD

                    Comment


                      #11
                      18 Oct 1855 St Wilfrids.


                      Ricardum KEAN of 23 Chester Rd son of Thoma KEAN of 2 Chester Rd
                      Franciseum BUTLER of 8 Lime St dau of Patricii BUTLER of 8 Lime St
                      Witnesses Jacobo BARRETT of Bradshaw St and Elizabetha BARRETT of Bradshaw St
                      Last edited by Janet H.; 29-07-19, 18:30.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Many Thanks Janet H, - much appreciated.

                        Holly.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I was going to say check the local lancashire bmd indexes, as it is known that a lot of lancashire events never made it to the gro indexes.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            This is weird. Found some ancestry private tree matches. Look at the top one...

                            8216AE0E-D096-4FAA-BD24-AA9E87EE7DB4.jpg

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Nothing weird about it GallowayLass, - the top one is mine, the other one is my sister's.

                              I've been testing out a theory that Richard Kean, Born Manchester 1860, and William James Wilson, Born Manchester 1860, both House Painters, - were one and the same person.

                              I put him on my Tree to see what would happen to my ThruLines... And suddenly, many of my DNA Matches all pop up, and fit in:-)

                              It seems to work better than struggling with the WATO Tool does.

                              Holly.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Holly View Post
                                Nothing weird about it GallowayLass, - the top one is mine, the other one is my sister's.

                                I've been testing out a theory that Richard Kean, Born Manchester 1860, and William James Wilson, Born Manchester 1860, both House Painters, - were one and the same person.

                                I put him on my Tree to see what would happen to my ThruLines... And suddenly, many of my DNA Matches all pop up, and fit in:-)

                                It seems to work better than struggling with the WATO Tool does.

                                Holly.
                                Aha! LOL

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  This was Holly's previous thread on the same subject:

                                  https://www.familytreeforum.com/show...t=richard+kean

                                  See post #40
                                  Last edited by Katarzyna; 30-07-19, 10:06.
                                  Kat
                                  My avatar is my Great Grandmother, Cassandra Elizabeth Palmer 1861 to 1940

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Many thanks for adding them together Kat.

                                    Holly.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      In your other thread you say you have Kean DNA matches to a father, nephew and grandson in Woodstock, Ontario, Canada. Do you have a tree for them on Ancestry or elsewhere?
                                      Kat
                                      My avatar is my Great Grandmother, Cassandra Elizabeth Palmer 1861 to 1940

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Yes Kat,

                                        It's a Public Tree, managed by Verne Kean. (I think that some of it is incorrect though).

                                        Holly.

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