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Thomas Wyatt bc 1790

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    Thomas Wyatt bc 1790

    According to census returns, Thomas Wyatt was born circa 1790 in Devizes, Wiltshire. He married Martha Maslen in Market Lavington on 4 September, 1810 and after her death, Mary Bunn in 1827.

    There are three possible baptisms for Thomas in Devizes between 1788 and 1792.
    1 Jan 1787 Particular Baptist, Devizes, son of Joseph & Martha Pead
    24 Mar 1788 St. Mary, Devizes, son of Cornelius and Susannah
    25 Aug, 1792, son of George and Mary (Thomas Weait)

    My Thomas was a cordwainer (as was his son), but in 1861, his occupation was given as a barber.

    On FMP, there are also two apprenticeship records for Thomas Wyatt:
    1800: Thomas WYATT, aged 11, son of James of Middlesex Militia, apprenticed to Thomas HARRIS, hairdresser of Devizes. Apprenticed by Bear Club in 1804.
    1801: Thomas WYATT, aged 11, son of Cornelius; apprenticed in 1805 to Joseph SAINSBURY, of Market Lavington, for 12 pounds. Source: The Bear Club, Devizes.


    There’s also an apprenticeship record in 1792 for another son of Cornelius which gives his occupation as a carpenter. Do you think I can say the second one is mine? Is it possible that a son of a carpenter would be apprenticed as a cordwainer? I don’t have access to Wiltshire trade directories so don’t know what Joseph Sainsbury’s occupation was.

    I’ve not had much luck tracing the other two Thomas Wyatts going forward. Thanks.
    Jenny

    #2
    Do the names of the children give any useful information re the parents? You often find that children will be named after the parents back then.
    My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

    Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

    Comment


      #3
      I never seem to have that luck! No obvious naming pattern for Thomas's children - no names the same as any of the parents from the baptisms. Thomas had four children from his first marriage - James, John, Ann and Mary. From what I can find, Cornelius had sons John and James and George also had a son called John, but both are common names. Nothing definitive there...

      .
      Jenny

      Comment


        #4
        I also never seem to find a "naming pattern" with most of my families.

        It does happen with one of OH's ancestral lines ......... but it doesn't help all that much because every generation has Cuthbert, Gilbert and Robert, so it's hard to distinguish between cousins. Plus, they all also seem to like wives called Elizabeth or variants of it.
        My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

        Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

        Comment


          #5
          Did gamekeepers have apprentices?
          1801
          Record type Gamekeepers,
          Joseph SAINSBURY appointed for Bishops & West Lavington, by George Duke of MARLBOROUGH.
          Place West Lavington
          County Wiltshire
          Kat
          My avatar is my Great Grandmother, Cassandra Elizabeth Palmer 1861 to 1940

          Comment


            #6
            the trade directories that are on Ancestry came from here and are still free:
            http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/d...on/p16445coll4

            no really early stuff for Witlshire, wasn't sure if it helps.
            Last edited by cbcarolyn; 12-06-19, 09:08.
            Carolyn
            Family Tree site

            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

            Comment


              #7
              County Record Offices have records of Gamekeepers . I have found many Gamekeepers Records recorded in special book in Northamptonshire CRO. Gamekeepers were usually appointed not indentured by the local landowners.

              janet

              Comment


                #8
                I assume, not that I think it helps, you saw the baptism record for Thomas Jan 1st 1787? It states that Martha died soon after giving birth, and the sister of Ann Mullins (married name). It is on ancestry, maybe on on FMP?
                Carolyn
                Family Tree site

                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                Comment


                  #9
                  having re read the record, I know can't decide who died!
                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...76/edit/record

                  I can see there was a another Thomas Wyatt born to Joseph and Martha in Dec 1787 and baptised Apr 1804

                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...20/edit/record
                  Last edited by cbcarolyn; 12-06-19, 20:00.
                  Carolyn
                  Family Tree site

                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thank you all for your replies. I did see the entry about the gamekeeper but had forgotten about it. I have several gamekeepers in my tree and never heard of an apprentice gamekeeper before.

                    I’ve now found two Joseph Sainsbury marriages, one in Market Lavington in 1802 – Joseph, a carpenter to a widow Sarah Rutt. The other, in Devizes, Joseph Sainsbury of West Lavington, a cordwainer, to Sarah Calder in 1804. My Wyatt family lived in West Lavington but this doesn’t help at all!
                    Jenny

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Would the christening in of Thomas son of Joseph and Martha in 1804 be something to do with his employment or his marriage, he would have been 17 then?

                      Son of Cornelius was christened in baptist church, can see Cornelius (1792) and Susanna's death entries on the register on ancestry
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Caroline ............

                        it could well have been.

                        17 is a little old to be starting work at that time, 10 or 12 more likely, but he could have been changing employers who wanted proof that he had been baptised, or bapitsed in the CofE.

                        Same applies to getting married, IF you have proof of his marriage around that date.

                        I have seen a couple of examples of double baptisms, one when a baby and one much later.

                        I haven't read all the postings, but could he possibly have been baptised in a non-conformist church or chapel??

                        One example ............ my maternal gt uncle and gt aunt were baptised in a Non-conformist (Methodist) Chapel in Macclesfield in 1832 (died 1833) and 1835 respectively. My gt grandfather was born in 1841, and he was baptised in CofE in Stockport, with his sister being re-baptised that same day. Interestingly, the parents (my gt gt grandparents) were married in a CofE church in Stockport.
                        My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

                        Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Sylvia C View Post
                          Caroline ............

                          it could well have been.

                          17 is a little old to be starting work at that time, 10 or 12 more likely, but he could have been changing employers who wanted proof that he had been baptised, or bapitsed in the CofE.

                          Same applies to getting married, IF you have proof of his marriage around that date.

                          I have seen a couple of examples of double baptisms, one when a baby and one much later.

                          I haven't read all the postings, but could he possibly have been baptised in a non-conformist church or chapel??

                          One example ............ my maternal gt uncle and gt aunt were baptised in a Non-conformist (Methodist) Chapel in Macclesfield in 1832 (died 1833) and 1835 respectively. My gt grandfather was born in 1841, and he was baptised in CofE in Stockport, with his sister being re-baptised that same day. Interestingly, the parents (my gt gt grandparents) were married in a CofE church in Stockport.
                          I kind of felt that it would be for an 'event' which may match an event already found to prove which Thomas it was, as his parents are on the record. I can't find the original baptism record as I am thinking he is the second child to carry that name from the parents? First records is definitely in a non conformist - first being born in January of that year. See the links I posted before below

                          I am not sure if jenoco has Ancestry.


                          Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                          having re read the record, I know can't decide who died!
                          https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...76/edit/record

                          I can see there was a another Thomas Wyatt born to Joseph and Martha in Dec 1787 and baptised Apr 1804

                          https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...20/edit/record
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I have only just had a quick look, but think Cornelius had son Thomas and he had son Cornelius in London, he married a Mary Pead from Devizes as they are in census for 1851, pretty certain both son and son of are hairdressers.

                            (there is a death certificate for Thomas 1845 and he was a hairdresser, in London)

                            Not sure how it all ties in, but am guessing they are all the same family, and all of whom are having children named Thomas.
                            Last edited by cbcarolyn; 13-06-19, 23:24.
                            Carolyn
                            Family Tree site

                            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Thanks for your input. I’m a bit confused! (Having ME problems at the moment which doesn’t help). Also, I don’t have access to Ancestry. I usually use the Library edition but unable to get there.

                              I can’t see a christening for Thomas in 1804 on FMP. However, in 1800 there is a Poor Law Union record for Thomas, aged 12, son of Joseph, so he was still alive then. Joseph also appears on the Survey of the Poor in 1802.

                              You’re saying that Cornelius’ son Thomas ended up in London and his son, also a Cornelius is on the 1851 census as a hairdresser. I can’t find Thomas. (Thomas Wyatt apprenticed to a hairdresser in Devizes was the son of James Wyatt, a militiaman.)

                              In turn, Cornelius, a hairdresser, married Mary Pead from Devizes (interestingly, Joseph Wyatt had married a Martha Pead in Devizes in 1783).

                              What I started with: Cornelius, son of Cornelius, a carpenter, was apprenticed to William Pinniger mlw of Devizes – I can’t find what mlw means.
                              Thomas, son of James, a militia man, was apprenticed to a hairdresser.
                              The other Thomas was apprenticed to Joseph Sainsbury, a carpenter in Market Lavington. Just to confuse things, there’s also a Joseph Sainsbury, cordwainer in West Lavington.

                              It looks as if I’m not going to be able to solve this conundrum!
                              Last edited by jenoco; 14-06-19, 01:50.
                              Jenny

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Update: I wonder if James and Joseph Wyatt could be the same person? The poor law record for Joseph states that he was a Middlesex militia man and the apprenticeship for Thomas Wyatt to the hairdresser states father was James Wyatt of the Middlesex militia. Joseph was married to Martha Pead. The Cornelius who appears on the 1851 census was married to Mary Pead. I think I can definitely discount this Thomas - he's not the one I'm looking for.
                                Jenny

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  I will get some screen shots of the records for Thomas I posted earlier

                                  I think this is the Cornelius line so you can dismiss:

                                  this bit is a guess at the moment as I can't find records to confirm link, but Cornelius is so unusual:
                                  marriage for Cornelius Wyatt and Susannah Painter M March 1738 Rowde in Wiltshire record on ancestry

                                  could be the parents of (as there are so few Wyatts around )
                                  Cornelius Wyatt ( - 1806) who married Susanna Watts 1770 Devizes record on ancestry

                                  (I was also hoping there may be records to say they were also parents of Joseph Wyatt)

                                  for Cornelius and Susanna there are baptism records for a John (wyate) 1774, Thomas (1788-1845) and James 1789 (big gap between - so maybe more children)

                                  I think this Thomas is the Hairdresser in London on the 1841 census with an Ann
                                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...08347053/facts

                                  there is a death cert also on ancestry. according to some trees he has a couple of wives and quite a few children, which I have not followed through.

                                  He has a son Cornelius baptised 1811 in London who is a hairdresser also, and marries Mary Pead. there are lots of records for these 2 on Ancestry.

                                  There are more records for the more recent people, will have another look around for the early ones tonight to see if can link them together.
                                  Carolyn
                                  Family Tree site

                                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Will have a look at James son of Cornelius, ancestry giving me a hint chelsea hospital records, but actual record on fold 3 it says:

                                    Name: Jas WyattPension Admission or Examination Age: 40
                                    Birth Year: abt 1790
                                    Birth Place: Devizes, Wilts
                                    Pension Admission or Examination Date: Aug 1830
                                    Regiment: 41st Foot Sir E. Stafford
                                    Rank: Private
                                    Carolyn
                                    Family Tree site

                                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      here are the 2 snips
                                      Baptist church at devizes
                                      wyatt1.JPG

                                      this is from records of St John the Baptist, Devizes:

                                      wyatt2.JPG
                                      Last edited by cbcarolyn; 14-06-19, 14:06.
                                      Carolyn
                                      Family Tree site

                                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Thank you, Carolyn, that all makes sense.
                                        Jenny

                                        Comment

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