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Baptism Question - John Hine 1835

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    Baptism Question - John Hine 1835

    I'm working on the family of Charles Hine (abt 1796-1866) and Elizabeth Bennett (1794-1868) of Wandsworth, Surrey, and have found the baptism records for most of their 10 children in Wandsworth All Saints. Charles was a gardener.

    I'm puzzled, though, by two baptismal records from 1835. I have one record for the 7th son, Frederick John Hine (1835-1921), indicating he was baptized on 12 Jul 1835. In the margin to the left of the baptism date is another date which I take to be a DoB--29 Apr. There is another baptismal record for John Hine, baptized 22 Jun 1835, with the same date in the margin--29 Apr.

    There is a younger son, John Hine, born abt 1837, for whom I've also found a baptism in 1837.

    All of these records are easily found in an Ancestry search if you have access.

    So, my puzzle is, who was the John baptized on 22 June? I'm fairly sure it is all the same family. The 1835 John doesn't show up in the many census I've found on the family. I've got an idea there were twins born on the 29th of April & John sickened, was baptized early, and died, but that's only a supposition. Or could Frederick John have been baptized twice? I'd think that unlikely. Does anyone have any ideas? Suggestions?
    Last edited by Prairie Chicken; 08-03-12, 10:33.

    #2
    There are several recent threads on this (i.e., child baptized twice).

    Usually the first time is a "private" baptism, probably because the child was ill, and there was concern whether s/he would live until a church baptism.

    The second baptism is really "received" into the congregation - the child made it past the illness and a ceremony is held in front of the congregation.

    I think that's consistent with the two names (John & Frederick John). It was also common to re-use a name if the first child with that name died. So, if J/FJ died, the next child could well have been named John also.

    Presumably the parents' names, abode & occupation are all the same?

    Can't speak to the possibility of twins, however. And, the baptisms are only easily seen if your ancestry sub is active...
    Last edited by PhotoFamily; 08-03-12, 03:15.
    ------------------------------------------------------
    My Families
    London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

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      #3
      I would say that the twins were born 29th April, FJ bapt 12 jul and John bapt earlier in June, (presumably sickly)..

      he then dies and then another John born in 1837.

      might be an idea to look for a death of John one inbetween 1835-1837.

      sometimes the minister will record in the register if they were twins or not, (but, this is not always the case).
      Julie
      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

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        #4
        Frederick John lived to a ripe old age. Yes, I've looked for a death record for John of 1835 with no joy. It sounds like I'm on the right track--will keep looking. Thanks to you both.

        Comment


          #5
          There is a Wandsworth birth reg Sep qtr 1837 for a John Hine.
          Does this fit with the 1837 bp you've found?

          (If so, this indicates John born 1837 could not be same child as a John bp 1835.)

          Jay
          Janet in Yorkshire



          Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

          Comment


            #6
            what about the other John? 1837? do you know what happened to him?
            Julie
            They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

            Comment


              #7
              I have just looked through Wandsworth all saints burials from 1835-1837 and nothing is showing for a John Hine.. so a bit puzzling where the heck he went to!
              Julie
              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

              Comment


                #8
                John, son of Charles & Eliz, bp Sep 1837 was recorded in the parental home in 1851 census.

                Jay
                Janet in Yorkshire



                Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                  #9
                  John son of Charles Hine married Elizabeth Sainsbury 6 March 1862 at Pancras St Matthew. Father & son Hine were both gardeners.
                  John Hine, gardener, & wife Elizabeth & 3 children were in Clapham in 1871.

                  Only the BC will confirm that the 1837 birth reg is for the same John Hine.

                  Jay
                  Janet in Yorkshire



                  Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Having looked at the image of the bp register, I am now wondering if John & Frederick John were the same child??

                    Has anyone looked in the right hand margin? What does it say for the top entry and for the next one (John Hine??)
                    By the time of the Frederick John entry, there had been 2 changes of clergyman.
                    Perhaps the child hadn't been baptised with both Christian names????

                    I have 2 proven sets of twins before civil registration was introduced, but the only way I know is because the vicar wrote "twin daughter of...." in the registers.

                    Jay
                    Janet in Yorkshire



                    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm working on John (born Q3 1837) now & am confident he wasn't born in 1835 with Frederick John. I have followed him thru the data with parents Charles & Elizabeth & on to his own family with another Elizabeth. I'm inclined to think to Frederick John had a twin, or as suggested earlier, was baptized twice. I'm wondering if twins Fred & John were born, John turned sickly, was baptized early & died, and the parents added John as Fred's middle name when they baptized him in July. Then two years later named their next son John. Just a hypothesis, but I'll keep looking.

                      The family has been fairly easy to track, and Frederick has a lot of descendants on Ancestry but I haven't seen any answers to the John puzzle yet. Oh well, if it were easy ....

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post
                        I have just looked through Wandsworth all saints burials from 1835-1837 and nothing is showing for a John Hine.. so a bit puzzling where the heck he went to!
                        I'd expect him to show up in the records if he had died. Julie, are you looking at an index or the actual PR?
                        ------------------------------------------------------
                        My Families
                        London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                          I'd expect him to show up in the records if he had died. Julie, are you looking at an index or the actual PR?
                          the actual pr's on ancestry, Sarah, though it is possible that if he was sickly he might have gone, say to a workhouse? or maybe another church in WW has the details.
                          Julie
                          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Has anyone managed to decypher the notes in the right-hand margin on the image? Does it give a clue?
                            (see post 10)

                            Jay
                            Janet in Yorkshire



                            Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post
                              Has anyone managed to decypher the notes in the right-hand margin on the image? Does it give a clue?
                              (see post 10)

                              Jay
                              do you mean the entry above fred john, Jay? if so, it says Off min (officiating minister)
                              Julie
                              They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                              Comment


                                #16
                                No Julie. I mean on the very right of the image - as a note in the margin of the register, outside the normal printed coloumns of the book.
                                There are 2 comments - one next to the first entry and then another brief one, next to the entry for Frederick John.

                                Also look at the names of the officiating ministers and when they change. (May or may not be of significance.)

                                Jay
                                Last edited by Janet in Yorkshire; 09-03-12, 12:32.
                                Janet in Yorkshire



                                Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

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                                  #17
                                  oh yes I see it now, "publicly baptised ? ends in ell"
                                  Julie
                                  They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I wonder if the one below it is just a "p" for privately baptised?
                                    Julie
                                    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I think the top comment MIGHT say something like "duplicate baptism ? Ireland? Kell?"I think the lower comment looks like "rep"It might not be significant in any way, but the comment was added for some reason and COULD have been added at a later time and even by a different person.Jay
                                      Janet in Yorkshire



                                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Good eye Jay, but I have no idea what it may tell us. The two baptisms were officiated by a different individual though.

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