Clara's death - help UPDATE #626

[Darksecretz]

do you know when Grace dies Steven? I have found a possible death...

Name: Grace Phillips
Birth Date: 16 Nov 1901
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1980
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Redbridge
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 14
Page: 1096

[stevie2006]

Thanks Julie that would appear to be the right one and again around the Ilford area. It seems most of the family lived and died around the Ilford area - I think if its not one of the two cert's I ordered then that's it I think. No other reason I can see why Clara can't be found in Ilford apart from she assumed another surname that is not standing out at the moment.

Thanks to everyone who has helped and happy new year and all the best for 2012

Steven

[herky]

Sorry I am not much help these days:o - I was working all over Christmas and seem to have lost the plot (he he - in both ways)
Anyway, I just want to wish you a Happy New Year and hopefully you will find her very soon.
Fingers and toes crossed.

[maudarby]

Hi Steven
Don't give up on Clara just yet.Be positive & say 2012 is the year that you are going to find out what happened to her.
I've had no luck finding a marriage for Rose to a Mr Smart unfortunately.

I keep going back to the photo that you posted on #253 of Clara & her 2 daughters. Do you know which was which? The daughter on the left is wearing an overall/apron so I presume she is the one living there while the other daughter is smartly dressed so presume that she was just visiting. We have established that the photo was taken during the war because of the tape on the windows. It's definitely not Thornton Rd because the houses are not Victorian & I have been doing a bit of spying & the aerial
view for 4 Mayville Rd & 88a Ley St (flat over a shop) show that both are "L" shaped at the rear with possibly just one window top & bottom in the recessed part of the house & the house in the photo appears to be flat at the back with two upstairs windows. I know this doesn't add anything to what we already know but I think the key is to find out where Clara was living in 1939. Easier said than done.
I had another idea. When you next contact Amanda could you ask if her father remembers what schools he went to. I'm guessing he would have started school in about 1937 & if it was in Ilford then Kelly's directories or similar may list the Mckannas. If he remembers starting school somewhere else you may be able to find them in a local directory.
Moggie

[stevie2006]

Herky you have been very helpful and thanks

Hi Moggie in the photo Isabel is on the left, Ethel in the middle and of course Clara on the right. 1938/1939 is the key for sure. Redbridge checked all the possible addresses I had but no sign of the McKanna's and I am pretty sure if I can find them then I have a chance of finding Clara. I might have another look through the addresses and see if there are any missing addresses. Thanks again for your help and not giving up!!!!!

Steven

[maudarby]

Hi Steven
That makes it all the more confusing because we have been able to "plot" Isabel's movements.
In Dec 1939 when her daughter died they were at Mayville Rd. In 1940 when your grandfather joined up they were at 61 Thornton Rd & sometime after this, still during the war they moved to 88a Ley St. I wonder if they had another move in between & that was where the photo was taken. It still won't help, still war time & you think Clara was living with Ethel & not Isabel. Let's hope Amanda's father can remember where he went to school.
Moggie

[stevie2006]

Hi Moggie I will have another look at my grandad's WW2 record and get back to you. That's where I got the addresses he was living at and moved to. There are a couple of period's of leave and I hoped it might say grandmother's funeral but nothing. My grandad served in Scotland and wasn't anywhere near the frontline. If his grandmother died during WW2 would he have been allowed leave to attend a funeral?

Steven

[Darksecretz]

I've had no luck finding a marriage for Rose to a Mr Smart unfortunately.

I think that perhaps it might be a second marriage like Hildas, Moggie..

I also have checked the army records for Charley, Nothing looks likely at all for him, though he might have been in a job where he was needed at home.

I wonder if it might help if we try and go back further with the Ward family, we know that there were two uncles living when the girls got put into care, Jack (which is possibly John) and Bill, (William) Ward. maybe she was visiting them? or the Pettit side?

[maudarby]

Hi Steven
I would have thought that your grandfather would have been given compassionate leave to attend his grandmother's funeral being as he was in the UK & not abroad.
If you want to scan any of his service records & email them to me I am more than willing to go through them. Another pair of eyes are sometimes useful.
I've just found a 1937 Essex Kelly's on Ancestry. There are no Mckannas listed but the name often get changed to Mckenna & I've been through all of them but no luck.
I noticed that Amanda's father's birth was registered in West Ham & the daughter that was born & died in 1934 was registered at Stepney. They probabably didn't stay at an address long enough to be listed in a directory.
Moggie

[stevie2006]

Hi moggie in the process of scanning the war record and will email it to you

Found another address on it - 50 Audrey Road, Ilford Lane, Ilford in about 1941

Fingers crossed you maybe see a clue

Steven

[stevie2006]

Also thought I would scan the marriage of Eric Rolfe to Isabel - on the witness part I can make out E McKanna (Ethel) and maybe a C Pond? I am not sure but thought it was worth posting. The only possible death of a Clara Pond is in Bromley Kent in 1942 but the year to birth is way out at 1878 but if these dates were guesses.......

[stevie2006]

Had a good look for marriages for Ward/Pettit to a Pond and then just Clara's to a Pond but nothing so maybe it could be an assumed name. Also Bromley is only 14 miles to Ilford. Finally I also emailed Redbridge again to see if they could do an ER search for 57 Thornton Road again but this time a wee bit earlier in 1936 - 1938 in case they moved at the outbreak of the War

Steven

[maudarby]

Hi Steven I've just had a quick look through the service records & I think it might be an idea to make a list of all the times that your grandfather was granted leave. Did you spot that he went AWOL! He was absent from 23.59 on 27th Sep until 22.00 29th Sep 1941( Fine 1 day 22hrs). I can't read where he was at the time. Possibly Hereford, definitely ends ---ford. Could this be when Clara died, perhaps they wouldn't give him leave to attend her funeral?
Moggie

Maybe not. He was already on leave 19th-26th Sep 1941 & obviously failed to return when he should have done.

[Darksecretz]

Steven,

do you have any idea who the other two witness' are on the certificate? (would Amanda know??)

[maudarby]

Hi Steven
I can't see the address 61Thornton Road mentioned in the records. Was this his address when he joined up, poss on the front page of the records?
This is what I've got so far, feel free to correct me if I have got it wrong.
Your grandfather joined up on 15th March 1940. Clara still alive then re the photo.
He was granted leave on
23rd-30th Dec 1940
14th-21st Feb 1941
19th-26th Sep 1941 + 2 days absent without leave
10th-19th Nov 1941
19th-26th Feb 1942
No other leave listed after this date.
Noted on 29th Oct 1941 address had changed to 50 Audrey Road, Ilford Lane, Ilford Essex.

Moggie

[stevie2006]

Unfortunately Julie its only E McKanna we recognise

Sorry Moggie there was another 2 pages but they were too large to fit in my scanner - they said that he joined the Army on 15th March 1940 and his address at that time was 61 Thornton Road, Ilford. Thanks for summarising the War record

Steven

[maudarby]

Hi Steven
A couple of questions.
When did your grandfather marry? Would his marriage account for one of the leave dates that I have listed.
Were there any other periods of leave listed on the other 2 pages?
Moggie

[margaretmarch]

Are there no details on the Service records of the marriage? He would have had to have permission and then show the marriage cert which gets noted on the papers.
Margaret

[stevie2006]

Hi moggie they got married in Alloa, Scotland on 24th October 1942

Steven

[maudarby]

Hi moggie they got married in Alloa, Scotland on 24th October 1942

Steven

Hi Steven
That seems odd because you would have thought that after his marriage his address would have changed to his new wife's address & not changed just a few days later to an address in Ilford (50 Audrey Road), unless his wife was living there. I'm presuming that his wife was born in Scotland & also why was his address in 1946 given as 88a Ley Street?
We are assuming that he was given leave to attend Clara's funeral but that might not have been the case. However the spell of leave in Feb 1942 would fit quite well with the Clara L Heath death reg J/F/M 1942.
Moggie