looking for birth/death

[Chrissie Smiff]

Thank you for filling in those gaps Ann

[Olde Crone Holden]

It wasn't yet compulsory to register a death in the 1840s - you were supposed to, but it was easy to avoid.

There IS a death in Sep Q for a MARY Broderick. Martin, her son, was registered in Dec q, so she would have had to have died at the end of September (say) and Martin registered beginning October. (5 days to register a death, 42 to register a birth).

OC

[ann56]

It wasn't yet compulsory to register a death in the 1840s - you were supposed to, but it was easy to avoid.

There IS a death in Sep Q for a MARY Broderick. Martin, her son, was registered in Dec q, so she would have had to have died at the end of September (say) and Martin registered beginning October. (5 days to register a death, 42 to register a birth).

OC

I have just ordered Martins birth cert so we will be able to get an exact birth date from that we could then check your theory out OC did you see that death for Mary on BMD I would like to look at it myself as she has been put down as a Mary on 1841 census but on her sons birth cert she is definetly down as Margaret (my friend tells me the Irish spelling is Margeritam)
Ann

[Olde Crone Holden]

No, the LATIN (that is, Roman Catholic) spelling is Margeritam. But I have often seen mistranscriptions of Marg, short for Margaret, as Mary and vice versa.

Yes, the death is on freebmd - 1845.

OC

[ann56]

No, the LATIN (that is, Roman Catholic) spelling is Margeritam. But I have often seen mistranscriptions of Marg, short for Margaret, as Mary and vice versa.

Yes, the death is on freebmd - 1845.

OC

Ah bit of a clue then the family were more than likely RC so I may find something on familysearch I can also look at the catholic church records in Warrington see if I can find a death/burial record. somewhere along the line it must have all changed as from my grt grandparents we are C of E .
I had an email from a gentleman who is doing his tree and he informed me Harriet Simister/Heap was his grt grandmother
He has cleared up the thomas born 1873/4 parentage as him being a Heap not a Broderick, but the child Mary E born 1881 although given the name Heap had father unknown on her birth cert (she was his grandmother) but it was always thought that thomas Broderick was her father as her mother had been a widow for 2yrs by then.
He also could not find a marriage for Harriet and Thomas but it would seem in his family it was excepted that they had lived together as man and wife for many years before Thomas,s death, he is now on the hunt for Thomas birth/death so lets hope he gets some feedback from his family
ann

[Olde Crone Holden]

I don't think that Thomas was RC because he married Bridget Howley in the parish church of St Michael (C of E). By 1860 they could easily have married in RC church if that was their religion. Also, RC events are recorded in exactly the same way for civil registration, but you may of course find details of a BURIAL in the church registers - if they were RC.

Yes, Thomas Heap was Thomas Heap, lol and I'm not sure why you ever thought he was Thomas Broderick's son?

Also, I must disagree about Mary E - if she was Thomas Broderick's child, why wasn't she registered as Broderick? The couple had no qualms about registering all the children born after 1883 as Broderick, so why be coy about Mary, if she was Thomas's child, why make her the odd one out, the illegitimate one?

Are you going to retry for the death cert of Thomas Broderick? I think the GRO have made a mistake - they do sometimes! Or you could get it from the local RO.

OC

[ann56]

I don't think that Thomas was RC because he married Bridget Howley in the parish church of St Michael (C of E). By 1860 they could easily have married in RC church if that was their religion. Also, RC events are recorded in exactly the same way for civil registration, but you may of course find details of a BURIAL in the church registers - if they were RC.

Yes, Thomas Heap was Thomas Heap, lol and I'm not sure why you ever thought he was Thomas Broderick's son?

Also, I must disagree about Mary E - if she was Thomas Broderick's child, why wasn't she registered as Broderick? The couple had no qualms about registering all the children born after 1883 as Broderick, so why be coy about Mary, if she was Thomas's child, why make her the odd one out, the illegitimate one?

Are you going to retry for the death cert of Thomas Broderick? I think the GRO have made a mistake - they do sometimes! Or you could get it from the local RO.

OC

Yes I am going to try for death cert again I am also going to get in touch with the local warrington records office see if they can help with either thomas or his mother.
I don,t know why Mary E. had no named father but according to her now living relatives they believe she was a Broderick as it seems from photo,s she looked a lot like him I have been a bit cheeky and asked if poss for me to have copy of some of their family pics.
As for the son thomas Heap I was going on family hearsay as to his father maybe because he had the name thomas I don,t know, it all gets a bit confusing when they have so many children with the same names repeating over and over I have to confess to having a son thomas myself lol
Ann

[Christine in Herts]

Here's Harriet's marriage
Alfred Heap Apr-May-Jun 1872 Ashton Under Lyne Lancashire <<<<<<<<
Jane Hoyle Apr-May-Jun 1872 Ashton Under Lyne Lancashire
Joseph Moss Apr-May-Jun 1872 Ashton Under Lyne Lancashire
Harriet Ann Simister Apr-May-Jun 1872 Ashton Under Lyne Lancashire <<<<<<<

volume 8d, page 858

For completeness:
It shows on Cheshire BMD as having taken place at Ashton under Lyne, St Michael.

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

There is still the unanswered question of why Thomas and Harriet did not marry. Almost certainly the reason was that one of them was already married - and that is likely to be Thomas. Do we know when his aunt died, the one who was looking after the children? It would be likely he would remarry at that point.

OC

[ann56]

There is still the unanswered question of why Thomas and Harriet did not marry. Almost certainly the reason was that one of them was already married - and that is likely to be Thomas. Do we know when his aunt died, the one who was looking after the children? It would be likely he would remarry at that point.

OC

Have not been able to find Catherine Brodericks death she is on 1851 census with John Broderick then I lose her she turns up on 1871 census with thomas then I lose her again, I have not done a lot of research on her to be honest but she is another one born in Ireland seems to be an early widow I have not found her on 1841 census either, maybe she came over to England to help John when his wife Margaret died leaving him with a young family
Ann

[margaretmarch]

Have not been able to find Catherine Brodericks death she is on 1851 census with John Broderick then I lose her she turns up on 1871 census with thomas then I lose her again, I have not done a lot of research on her to be honest but she is another one born in Ireland seems to be an early widow I have not found her on 1841 census either, maybe she came over to England to help John when his wife Margaret died leaving him with a young family
Ann

Maybe she usually lives in Ireland and only comes to England when she is needed to care for families where mum has died?
Margaret

[ann56]

Maybe she usually lives in Ireland and only comes to England when she is needed to care for families where mum has died?
Margaret

Yes maybe in that case she will be almost impossible to pin down, I thought of something else when going back over the 1851 census we have John father, thomas age 11 son Peter age 8 son but not Martin who would be 5 by now wonder where he is just spent all afternoon looking for him nothing he in Oldham by 1861 gone to join his brothers working in the cotton mills, both he and Peter died very young both from heart disease.
Ann