Where did William come from?

[Darksecretz]

Hi everyone, when I was sorting things out the other day I found a paper that mum wrote on that her step grandma's sister was Nel Brown, [Ellen Osborne] I have been tracking her down and have found she married a William Brown b. 1881 Nottingham, I have a copy of their marriage from the PR's and it states that his father was John Brown occ-Electrician. BUT I can't find any of them before the marriage, lots of info coming back up that Williams Father was indeed George Brown and William had a middle name of Thomas. I have been searching Ancestry and still can't find anything, not even on the 1939 register.
The witnesses' on Ellen/Nels marriage were Arthur Aysethorpe and Ada Ann Ayesthorpe [nee Cooper] I have just found Arthur and Adas marriage in 1901 in Bulwell, Nottingham, interestingly Ada's address is the same address that Ellen gives when she marries. 44 Ketts Street Bulwell.

Ellen was the daughter of John Osborne and Ellen Wright. Ellen [wife of John] died in 1894 and John married again shortly after. I have not found Ellen/Nel in the 1901 census. [yet]

Ellen/William marriage: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...?pId=242749883

Arthur/Ada marriage: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...=successSource

Ellen 1891: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...d=422270782808

Ellen/William 1911: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...d=422270782808

Any help would be greatly appreciated thank you. I'm going bozz eyed!

[Lin Fisher]

Julie, just sent an e-mail to you with what I think is Ellen and children in 1921. See what you thing or you might already know this.

[Darksecretz]

Julie, just sent an e-mail to you with what I think is Ellen and children in 1921. See what you thing or you might already know this.

Thanks I'll have a look now x

[Darksecretz]

Lin Fisher is there an image with that transcription at all? I'm wondering if the surname is actually Beeson?

[Darksecretz]

Julie, just sent an e-mail to you with what I think is Ellen and children in 1921. See what you thing or you might already know this.

I think that you have cracked it.... though this doesn't help with William at all, I still can't find Ellen Osborne in 1901 no matter how hard I look. From looking at the 1901 census Ernest Alfred BEESON is the son of William and Caroline Beeson.. this is also very interesting as I also have Beesons in my family. [I've yet to look to see if William is in any way related to my Beesons] It appears that Ernest married in 1903 but on the 1911 he's with his parents and also stating he's still married.. though no wife is with him.

1911: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery.../24191390:2352

I have also spotted that the last two girls on the 1921 have a MMN of Osborne

[Darksecretz]

and just like that............... I have found William with his father and mother John and Elizabeth in Hucknall in 1901!....

[Katarzyna]

Death??:
BROWN, WILLIAM 35
GRO Reference: 1917 J Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 296

[Darksecretz]

Death??:
BROWN, WILLIAM 35
GRO Reference: 1917 J Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 296

Thank you Kat, I'm not sure just yet whether that is him or not. There are quite a lot of WBs in and around Nottingham. I got a bit sidetracked yesterday looking at the Beeson/Beeston lines. [as you do] x

[Lin Fisher]

Sorry Julie, but for some reason I couldn't get on this site after I had some the e-mail. There is an image but definitely says Brown on the 3 and Beeson on the others.

I couldn't find Ellen on 1901 either.

Looking at the 1921 again do you think that she is living with Alfred Beeson and the 2 girls are theirs. Just a thought but Ellen and the 2 Brown children are definitely them.

Well done on 1901 census for William. I've got a lot of Browns in Worksop so know how hard it is to find them!!

[Darksecretz]

Sorry Julie, but for some reason I couldn't get on this site after I had some the e-mail. There is an image but definitely says Brown on the 3 and Beeson on the others.

I couldn't find Ellen on 1901 either.

Looking at the 1921 again do you think that she is living with Alfred Beeson and the 2 girls are theirs. Just a thought but Ellen and the 2 Brown children are definitely them.

Well done on 1901 census for William. I've got a lot of Browns in Worksop so know how hard it is to find them!!

I do think that she and Ernest Alfred had children together [as per the 1921 where the 2 youngest girls are Beesons but have mmn of Osborne
Many of the trees have William as William Thomas Brown s/o George and Thirza Brown, but I don't think that is right at all. No-where on his marriage does he mention a middle name of Thomas and it states that his father is John and Electrician. It was quite a fluke that I found him and his family living in Hucknall of all places!
Yes, Browns are flipping difficult at the best of times and whilst I was looking I was getting more and more disheartened, thinking I'd never solve William and his parents. I know that they aren't proper blood relations and just married ins but it made me wonder if the Osbornes/Beesons and Browns could potentially be connected to my other Osbornes/Beesons and Browns.. I have one photo of Ellens sister Gertrude that married my great grandmothers husband [after grt gran had died] My mum never called her Grandma Gert it was always Aunt Gert.. no idea why she just did. Apparently she could cook a wicked baked Alaska and was in service for Dr. Varten in Hucknall.

I'm going to look again to see if I can spot Ellen in 1901, I don't have FMP so am a bit limited as to where I can look for her.

[cbcarolyn]

I can check FMP for 1921 census LMK the details for the record you think. Friend just arrived for coffee will check back later.

[Lin Fisher]

Getting myself tied in knots but haven't found Ellen but her sister Gertrude from 1891 census is in Nottingham with John her father and Lizzie and another child John N. Looked John N up and it's John Neville and MMN Pearsall. Found a death for Ellen (mother0 in 1894 Nottingham. Burial on Ancestry. Then a bit in the paper about John Neville having a car accident in Southwell, where Lizzie was born. Mentions his wife and parents John and Sarah Elizabeth and she is 79. All fits. Looked in Southwell and the marriage in there. He is a widower and from Basford.

Do you think your Ellen decided to leave home rather than live with her Step Mum. Not much help but we know where she isn't!!

Thanks Carolyn. I am not very good with sending things.

[Darksecretz]

I can check FMP for 1921 census LMK the details for the record you think. Friend just arrived for coffee will check back later.

Getting myself tied in knots but haven't found Ellen but her sister Gertrude from 1891 census is in Nottingham with John her father and Lizzie and another child John N. Looked John N up and it's John Neville and MMN Pearsall. Found a death for Ellen (mother0 in 1894 Nottingham. Burial on Ancestry. Then a bit in the paper about John Neville having a car accident in Southwell, where Lizzie was born. Mentions his wife and parents John and Sarah Elizabeth and she is 79. All fits. Looked in Southwell and the marriage in there. He is a widower and from Basford.

Do you think your Ellen decided to leave home rather than live with her Step Mum. Not much help but we know where she isn't!!

Thanks Carolyn. I am not very good with sending things.

cbcarolyn details from 1921 Alfred Ernest Besson age 37 born Hucknall

Ellen Brown age 38 born Nottingham [housekeeper] and 7 children Browns and Bessons [but I think that the surname is Beeson but mistranscribed]

I saw about john neville osborne, but didn't know about the accident. Sarah Elizabeth Pearsall was john's second wife. I believe that john sr dies in Southwell in 1946.


No, still not found Ellen on 1901, I'll have another look after dinner. Thank you ladies x

[Katarzyna]

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/18794664:7814

Is this not Ellen in 1901??

And 1891

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/13667229:6598?tid=&pid=&queryId=d3ecfb40-d916-4a35-9305-1ad847fd1713&_phsrc=IlP1&_phstart=successSource

[cbcarolyn]

Here is the transcription. will send image
First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Sex Birth year Age in years Birth place Occupation Employer
Alfred Ernest Besson Head Male 1883 37 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England Coal Miner (Hewer) Bestwood Coal & Iron Co
Ellen Brown Housekeeper Female 1882 38 Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England Home Duties -
Harry Brown Son Male 1903 18 Bulwell, Nottinghamshire, England Coal Miner Haulier Underground Bestwood Coal & Iron Co
William Ernest Besson Son Male 1903 17 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England Coal Miner Haulier Underground Bestwood Coal & Iron Co
Harold Besson Son Male 1906 14 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England Pit Boy Coal Sorter Aboveground Bestwood Coal & Iron Co
Gertrude Brown Daughter Female 1907 14 Bulwell, Nottinghamshire, England Hosiery Guswold Hand Harper & Grudgings Hosiery Manufacturers
Evelyn Besson Daughter Female 1908 12 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England - -
Winifred Besson Daughter Female 1918 3 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England - -
Gladys Besson Daughter Female 1920 1 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England - -

[Darksecretz]

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery.../18794664:7814

Is this not Ellen in 1901??

And 1891

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...=successSource

in 1891 this is definitely her, I'm not sure about the 1901 one, as there is another Nellie Osborne around the same time. I'll have to see if I can x ref her, there is a death for a Nellie Osborne
too, but IDT this is her. [as Ellen is on the 1921 census living with an Alfred Ernest Beeson and their children] Alfred Ernest went by the name of Ernest Beeson.

Name Nellie Osborne
Death Age 38
Birth Date abt 1882
Registration Date Jul 1920
[Aug 1920]
[Sep 1920]
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district Nottingham
Inferred County Nottinghamshire
Volume 7b
Page 345

[Darksecretz]

Here is the transcription. will send image
First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Sex Birth year Age in years Birth place Occupation Employer
Alfred Ernest Besson Head Male 1883 37 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England Coal Miner (Hewer) Bestwood Coal & Iron Co
Ellen Brown Housekeeper Female 1882 38 Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England Home Duties -
Harry Brown Son Male 1903 18 Bulwell, Nottinghamshire, England Coal Miner Haulier Underground Bestwood Coal & Iron Co
William Ernest Besson Son Male 1903 17 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England Coal Miner Haulier Underground Bestwood Coal & Iron Co
Harold Besson Son Male 1906 14 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England Pit Boy Coal Sorter Aboveground Bestwood Coal & Iron Co
Gertrude Brown Daughter Female 1907 14 Bulwell, Nottinghamshire, England Hosiery Guswold Hand Harper & Grudgings Hosiery Manufacturers
Evelyn Besson Daughter Female 1908 12 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England - -
Winifred Besson Daughter Female 1918 3 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England - -
Gladys Besson Daughter Female 1920 1 Hucknall, Nottinghamshire, England - -

Thank you Carolyn, the last two girls are Ellens with Ernest as father. [presumably, as they have Beeson as a surname and MMN of Osborne]

[Katarzyna]

OSBORNE, ELLEN mmn WRIGHT
GRO Reference: 1882 D Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 316

OSBORNE, GERTRUDE mmn WRIGHT
GRO Reference: 1889 M Quarter in BASFORD Volume 07B Page 226

Marriages Jun 1882
OSBORNE John Nottingham 7b 524
Wright Ellen Nottingham 7b 524

[Katarzyna]

re 1921 census.
Gertrude Brown Daughter Female 1907 14 Bulwell, Nottinghamshire. As she's under 15 - the declaration says her father is dead.

[Darksecretz]

OSBORNE, ELLEN mmn WRIGHT
GRO Reference: 1882 D Quarter in NOTTINGHAM Volume 07B Page 316

OSBORNE, GERTRUDE mmn WRIGHT
GRO Reference: 1889 M Quarter in BASFORD Volume 07B Page 226

Marriages Jun 1882
OSBORNE John Nottingham 7b 524
Wright Ellen Nottingham 7b 524

re 1921 census.
Gertrude Brown Daughter Female 1907 14 Bulwell, Nottinghamshire. As she's under 15 - the declaration says her father is dead.

Thank you for this, Kinda makes me wonder if he was really dead or she said he was dead..... there is a death in 1917 for a WB so that would fit kind of nicely with that. I'm having a bit of a time looking for Williams bapt/birth.. nothing much showing on Ancestry or GRO.... his MMN should be Grocock BUT his parents didn't marry until 1884 and William was born 1881/1882 depending which record you look at. Just when you think that you have one thing sorted up pops another!