Could I have help with pregnancy & death dates please

[Sandra]

Hi, Could I ask for your help please. I need fresh eyes.

My Maths is rubbish and I'm going round in circles, I need to work out pregnancies/births/deaths.

I am looking for two siblings of my nan who were born and died before 1911, I know they should be on FreeBMD FMP or Ancestry somewhere, but I can't see for the life of me where they would fit in the family timeline.

My g-grandparents Rebecca Lee and Alfred Fry definitely had 17 children between 1890 and 1914.

In the 1911 census, it says they had 16 children, 8 were living, and 8 had died. They had three more children after April 1911.

I need to find out where the missing children fitted in. Any suggestions please?

Oh forgot to say I have looked through all the baptism records for all the churches in the area (they tended to use two churches), but I can't find the missing baptisms, which meant they died very, very young, maybe a day or week so old. The babies with just the birth year I have, weren't in the baptism records, so must have died before they were baptised.

The 1921 census doesn't help at all, as it doesn't ask how many children you've had, or how many died.

All the children were born in Custom House, which is an area of Canning Town in the West Ham Reg District.
I will list the children here -

Alfred Thomas Fry 30 Apr 1890 - 23 Nov 1918
Martha Elizabeth Fry 1 Feb 1892 - 1903
Maria Fry 10 Jan 1894 - 1989
William Fry 2 Sept 1895 - 1899
Thomas Fry 9 Apr 1897 - 1 Jan 1940
Rose Frances Fry 25 Aug 1899 - 11 Apr 1939
Rebecca Fry 14 Nov 1901 - 18 Apr 1872
Louisa Fry 10 Aug 1903 - 20 Sep 1993 (My Nan)
Caroline Grace Fry 1 Oct 1904 - 21 Oct 1904
Lily Fry 11 Nov 1905 - 11 Jan 1906
James Fry 8 Mar 1907 - 1907
George Joseph Fry 12 Mar 1908 - 1908
Mary Ann Fry 7 May 1909 - 22 Aug 1957
Charles John James Fry 15 Aug 1910 - 1911
The 1911 census was taken
Sarah Fry 1911 - 1911 she was born & died in the last quarter of 1911, so after the census
Henry Edward Fry 26 Apr 1913 - 29 Aug 1984
John Fry 7 Aug 1914 - 4 June 1916

So according to the 1911 census, there were two births and deaths between Alfred and Charles. But I can't see gaps where they could have been.
Naming patterns don't help, as they didn't seem to name the new babies after their dead siblings like some of my lot did.
All the children were born and died in West Ham. Of course they were all born before 1912, so no MMN.

I have been looking on and off since the 1911 census came out. Its really bugging me now, as I need to find these babies for closure...if that makes sense.

Thank you.
Sandra

Edit sorry, I put the dates in columns so it was easier to see, but as I posted, the dates have gone next to the names without a gap. Sorry if it makes it hard to read.
2nd edit - forgot to say the eldest Alfred was born in Dartford, the others were all born in West Ham

[Lin Fisher]

Hi, I have found all the children you have except Alfred Thomas born 1890 and a John born 1910 you haven't got. When did they marry and could he have been born before they were married. Not had time to look at the census yet.

Could they have just counted wrong when the census was taken.

Sorry will have a better look tomorrow.

[Jill on the A272]

I've looked on the GRO site where you can search with a maiden name and can't see any you have missed, my only thoughts are that they miscounted or maybe there was a stillbirth that they mistakenly included which of course would not appear on the GRO index.

[Anne in Carlisle]

Did you try surnames Frye and Lea? Might have missed some that way.
In my family I do suspect they counted miscarriages and stillbirths, of which there is no record at the time.
Anne

[vera2013]

I can count 7 births and deaths prior to 1911 on your list. There are births every 2 years. Maybe birth prior to marriage. Could possibly squeezed one in between Thomas b April 1897 and Rose b Aug 1899

Vera

[Darksecretz]

Sandra you can search the GRO indexes online and although you can only search the year +/- two years you can see the MMN before the 1911 date. If you have ordered certs from the GRO before you can search their site.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Results

you can also alter the criteria to search for surnames that sound alike/phonetic, once you get the hang of looking at it it can be really helpful. It has helped me locate many a missing child from the 1911 census and even before then.

[Sandra]

Hi, I have found all the children you have except Alfred Thomas born 1890 and a John born 1910 you haven't got. When did they marry and could he have been born before they were married. Not had time to look at the census yet.

Could they have just counted wrong when the census was taken.

Sorry will have a better look tomorrow.

Hi Lin

Sorry, I did edit my post to say that Alfred was the only one born in Dartford, the rest were born in Marten Rd, Custom House/Canning Town.

Charles John James was born on 5th Aug 1910. he died in 1911. birth Vol 4A 215.

Rebecca and Alfred were married in Holy Trinity Church, Barking Rd, Canning Town on 24th June 1889. About 10 months before 1st child Alfred was born.

I tried to attach the census, but the file was too large x

[Sandra]

I've looked on the GRO site where you can search with a maiden name and can't see any you have missed, my only thoughts are that they miscounted or maybe there was a stillbirth that they mistakenly included which of course would not appear on the GRO index.

As this was the 1911 census, I thought the mothers maiden name didn't appear until 1912?.
Yes, I've thought maybe stillbirths too.

[Sandra]

Did you try surnames Frye and Lea? Might have missed some that way.
In my family I do suspect they counted miscarriages and stillbirths, of which there is no record at the time.
Anne

I really don't think the names could have been miss spelled, as all the other children are correct.
As it's before 1912, I didn't think MMN was on the register.
I'm leaning to a couple of still births now as well, but I really can't see how the pregnancies would fit into the timeline of the other children x

[Sandra]

Sandra you can search the GRO indexes online and although you can only search the year +/- two years you can see the MMN before the 1911 date. If you have ordered certs from the GRO before you can search their site.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Results

you can also alter the criteria to search for surnames that sound alike/phonetic, once you get the hang of looking at it it can be really helpful. It has helped me locate many a missing child from the 1911 census and even before then.

Thank you, I have tried that, but nothing...
I have spent £100's over the years on certificates from the GRO (I know I've got over 300 paper copies from the GRO). Now a lot are online on Seax (the Essex records site) or Ancestry etc.

I first started trying to find all of my nan's siblings back in 2002 when I first started looking at my family history, via fishe & microfilm in my local LDS church. I got out of all the church records in Canning Town and Plaistow (which used to take 2 weeks to arrive, but now you can get them in seconds). This was way before a lot of the census' were online.
I keep going back to it since the 1911 census came out, its just so frustrating.

Mum tried to help. She was in her own words 'a bit rubbish' as all she knew was she had lots of Aunties and Uncles, and 100's (her words) of cousins! But had no idea of their names. Sadly we lost her 4 years ago.
Mum was one of 11 children. I do come from a large East End family!

[Sandra]

I can count 7 births and deaths prior to 1911 on your list. There are births every 2 years. Maybe birth prior to marriage. Could possibly squeezed one in between Thomas b April 1897 and Rose b Aug 1899

Vera

Ooooh now that's a thought!
I'll have a look for a birth between mums Uncle Tommy & Aunty Rosie, which has a death before April 1911

Thank you Vera x

[vera2013]

I can see a death for a baby girl in September q 1906. This is following Lily's death.

Margaret Elizabeth Fry September q age 0. West Ham.

Can't see a birth registration but I have seen that previously when baby died soon after birth

In my family I had four to find. Found 3. Not too difficult with big gaps between births. Never found 4th which is sad

Vera

[Sandra]

I can see a death for a baby girl in September q 1906. This is following Lily's death.

Margaret Elizabeth Fry September q age 0. West Ham.

Can't see a birth registration but I have seen that previously when baby died soon after birth

In my family I had four to find. Found 3. Not too difficult with big gaps between births. Never found 4th which is sad

Vera

Hi Vera Thanks you for the suggestion.
I've just done some working out (using my fingers lol)

Lily was born on 11th Nov 1905 (I got this from her baptism record, she was bap on 1st Dec)
Mum Rebecca may have fell pregnant straight away which is the norm for her. If this was the case unknown baby (Margaret?) may have come along Aug/Sept 1906?.and died Sept 1906.

If Margaret was one of the missing babies, this doesn't give Rebecca long enough to have a full term pregnancy with James, who was born 8th March 1907 (bap 28th March 1907)

James may have been prem, but back then a baby born at 6 months would only have lived minutes, maybe hours, as they didn't have the technology to keep them alive. I don't have James actual death date, only that he died in the June quarter, so lived 10 days to his baptism, then maybe a week or so afterwards.

Maybe the missing tow babies were early stillborns, and they counted them as babies born?

I haven't bought all the birth and death certs, as I couldn't afford it (my nan as seen above was one of 17, or 19 children. and her husband, my granddad was one of 13 children (I do have most of the death certificates for my granddad's siblings)

[vera2013]

Do you have any records for where the babies were buried EDIT can see 3 possibles William, Sarah and John James

I can see that West Ham burials are on line at Deceased online and there is a burial there for Margaret Elizabeth Fry 17 August 1906. I cant see any clues on Ancestry for her. Just trying to eliminate her although fair assumption that James would have been conceived prior to Margaret Elizabeth Fry.

Cant be sure but would (pondering now) a large family record still births in their total of children who have died but then the one I cant find could be a stillbirth

Vera

[RespectfulConversations]

Sandra you'll figure it out eventually! Tracing family history can be so frustrating with gaps like that. A few stillbirths that weren't officially recorded do seem plausible.

[Sylvia C]

FWIW ..................

My best friend in high school back in the late 1950s was the eldest of 3 living children, but her mother constantly mentioned "Christine" who was still born between, I believe, children 2 and 4. She was considered very much a part of the family. If asked the number of children, I'm sure that the mother would have replied 4 children, 1 died.