Have I got this part of my tree right? - I think think I have.......

[EmpireUmpire]

Hello all,

I think what I'm looking for is some help confirming a section of my family tree. I've spent a great deal of time looking at this and I'm fairly confident I'm correct - but who knows!

What I really need is a fresh set of eyes - so anyone willing to spend a bit of time with me would be gratefully received.

What I Know is Correct

- I know that Ursula Choke/Chalke married John Munday at Biddesden (Pedigree taken from the Visitation of Somerset 1623, also from the Harleian Society Vol. XI of London England.)

- I know that John Munday married Bridget Hopkins, also at Biddesden (Taken from the John and Frances West Society pedigree located at Christ's Hospital School)


The Section of Family Tree in Question

Ursula Choke (Chalke) married John Munday at Biddesden
Had issue: John Munday
John Munday married Elizabeth ?
Had issue: John Munday
John Munday married Bridget Hopkins at Biddesden


What I Need to Confirm

- Did Ursula Choke/ Chalke and John Munday the elder have a son called John?

- Did John Munday the younger marry Elizabeth ?

- Did John Munday the younger and Elizabeth ? have a son called John Munday?

- Was it this John Munday who married Bridget Hopkins.


Its all there and like i've said, I'm fairly sure its correct but for my own sanity I need some help.

Kind regards
Emps

[kylejustin]

Are these 2 pedigrees all the evidence you have? Bear in mind pedigrees are riddled with errors, some intentional.

[EmpireUmpire]

I have two pedigrees:-

- The John and Frances West pedigree that begins with me and ends (for the purpose of this thread) with John Munday and Bridget Hopkins. The pedigree is supported with all relevant BDM documents and has been independently verified by Christs Hospital School so I know this one is correct.

- As for the marriage between John Munday and Ursula Choke/Chalke - this marriage appears in two separate pedigrees from the time so I am confident of its validity. Ursula and Johns marriage would have been of no significance to the family (from an advancement perspective), or socially, so I can't see an independent, non family chronicler fibbing about it.

Both John Mundays were from Biddesden, a small village in Wiltshire (so I can't see how they are not Grandfather and Grandson), I just need to connect one son. So frustrating.

[PhotoFamily]

I have ancestors who attended/were place at Christ's Hospital. Have you obtained the actual records from CH, or just a tree written from the CH records?

On discharge from CH, some children went on to apprenticeships, often paid for by CH. Have you been able to locate Freedom records for any of your peeps? The CH discharge info should have the disposition of the child at time of discharge, and probably the person to whom the child was discharged.

I have a child of my CH ancestor who was sent to CH for schooling. These peeps attended in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

[PhotoFamily]

And as I recall, CH records were in two parts. The first were the admission and discharge ledger, but there were also more detailed admission records in another section of the records. That's where I found a certified copy of a marriage record, the details about why this child needed to be placed, etc. No actual school records, tho.

[EmpireUmpire]

Hi and thanks for the reply,

Just to clarify -

- None of these people attended Christ's Hospital School as pupils.
- Please see here for more information about the John and Frances West pedigree http://www.west-group.org

I think I've confused matters here by mentioning Christ's Hospital. All I need to confirm is if:

- Ursula Choke/Chalke and John Munday had a son called John Munday who married Elizabeth ?, who had a son called John Munday that married Bridget Hopkins.

Cheers

[kylejustin]

You don't give any dates in your query, hence why asking if the only source is the pedigrees. If they are the only source you have, you need to verify what's in them from original documents. As i said they are quite often are riddled with mistakes. Sometimes this is intentional, to link to famous or important families, hide illegitimacy etc. I have a few pedigrees for my own family, they have quite a few mistakes in them, including two generations in the direct line that false.

[PhotoFamily]

- None of these people attended Christ's Hospital School as pupils.
- Please see here for more information about the https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/West-24456 http://www.west-group.org

So cool. Imagine the endowment that sets up a scholarship that has lasted this long.

I would note that John and Frances appear both in FamilySearch and WikiTree. WT has a nice write up of Simon the father. FS gives info about John's sibs, but I'm not getting FS to display the descendant tree for Simon. I'm clicking on each child instead

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L7BY-9Y1

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/West-24456

[PhotoFamily]

The Section of Family Tree in Question

Ursula Choke (Chalke) married John Munday at Biddesden
Had issue: John Munday
John Munday married Elizabeth ?
Had issue: John Munday
John Munday married Bridget Hopkins at Biddesden


What I Need to Confirm

- Did Ursula Choke/ Chalke and John Munday the elder have a son called John?

- Did John Munday the younger marry Elizabeth ?

- Did John Munday the younger and Elizabeth ? have a son called John Munday?

- Was it this John Munday who married Bridget Hopkins.

FS has the same linkages on FamilyTree. Several sources are listed for the youngest John, fewer as you go up, and not clear if the connections are substantive:

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L5X8-K5J

[ozgirl]

Do you have access to Ancestry, as there is a tree on there which might help you. According to this tree, John Munday, b 1680 m Ursula Choke, had son John b. 1612. John Jr died in 1646, leaving a pregnant widow Elizabeth, who a couple of months later gave birth to another son John. Grandson John went on to marry Bridget. All this seems to match your findings. What is interesting though is that he has transcriptions of wills which mention all these relationships (one from John b1612 grandmother, and one from John 1612 own will mentioning his pregnant wife.) plus lots of others!

Biddesden is within the Ludgershall parish, and the images are also on Ancestry. I had a look and did find the baptism for John (as Johanes Muday) on 13 Sep 1612, his burial on 12 Apr 1646 and the baptism of baby John to Elizabeth Munday widow on 26 may 1646.

Link to tree:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tr...73138130/facts.

[EmpireUmpire]

Do you have access to Ancestry, as there is a tree on there which might help you. According to this tree, John Munday, b 1680 m Ursula Choke, had son John b. 1612. John Jr died in 1646, leaving a pregnant widow Elizabeth, who a couple of months later gave birth to another son John. Grandson John went on to marry Bridget. All this seems to match your findings. What is interesting though is that he has transcriptions of wills which mention all these relationships (one from John b1612 grandmother, and one from John 1612 own will mentioning his pregnant wife.) plus lots of others!

Hi, thanks for sending that through. Very interesting indeed.

On balance, I'd say it was all correct - The fact that all the John Munday's are confirmed as being from Biddesden is enough on its own - Biddesden being a tiny village. However, a couple of things bother me with all this though:-

- I can't find a birth record for Ursula Choke (who was apparently born c1580 - source unknown)
- I can't find a marriage document for John Munday and Ursula Choke
- The only proof of marriage is from the Visitation of Somerset 1623 and from the Harleian Society Vol. XI of London England.

- A John Munday married an Ursula ELDERWELL in Hurstbourne Tarrant, only 7 miles from Biddesden in 1636.
- I can only find two relevant death records for an Ursula Munday in the 17th century, one in Romsey in 1647 and the one in Ludgershall from 1662 - was this Ursula Choke or Ursula Elderwell?


Having said all that - I do have this which adds a great deal of reassurance to John Munday and Ursula Choke being legitimate:-

Will.png


I'd appreciate thoughts if you have the time.

Cheers

[EmpireUmpire]

In fact - I think I'm satisfied that the Munday / Choke line is correct.

Thanks to everyone for their input and help.

Kind regards

[jenoco]

I can't help with your query but I also have a connection to Christ's Hospital through the Stare family and your post has reminded me that I need to do some more 'digging' and research further on this line, so thank you. John West's mother was Elizabeth Stare.