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Frederick William Newman, Born Carnarvon, 1844

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    Frederick William Newman, Born Carnarvon, 1844

    I’m trying to find a definite Birth for Frederick William Newman, born Carnarvon, North Wales in 1844.

    Also looking for a Marriage for him, and trying to ascertain if Thomas Louis Newman, born approx 1869, Carnarvon, - was definitely his son.

    Cheers, Holly.

    #2
    where have you got these details to start with census? maybe useful to give a few more details.
    Carolyn
    Family Tree site

    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

    Comment


      #3
      NEWMAN, FREDERICK WILLIAM mmn HURST
      GRO Reference: 1844 S Quarter in CARNARVON Volume 27 Page 315
      Kat
      https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

      Comment


        #4
        Is this the census for Thomas for 1911 that you have found?
        https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...&rhSource=2352
        Thomas Louis Newman 42 b Wales - House Decorator
        Francis Newman 38
        Beatrice Minnie Newman 9
        Thomas Louis Newman 7
        Alfred Burns Lowis Newman 2
        Susan Rose Ellen Newman


        NEWMAN, BEATRICE MINNIE mmn DYER
        GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 1089

        NEWMAN, THOMAS LOUIS mmn DYER
        GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 1374
        Last edited by Katarzyna; 05-08-20, 19:19.
        Kat
        https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

        Comment


          #5
          There is a baptism for a Frederic William at Llanidan which is just across the Strait from Carnarvon.
          Frederic William Newman
          Birth year 1844
          Baptism date 21 Jul 1844
          Place Llanidan
          County Anglesey
          Country Wales
          Father William
          Mother Eliza

          Kat
          https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

          Comment


            #6
            I found that one - there is a burial soon after :(

            I can only find that census too, was wondering how Holly has made a link to the father.
            Carolyn
            Family Tree site

            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

            Comment


              #7
              Yes, me too Carolyn. Am waiting for her to return and although assuming this is all correct so far, I don't want to speculate further.
              Kat
              https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks all for the replies. For some unknown reason I’m not getting sent notifications of replies any more.

                I’ve been digging away at this one for years...

                Thomas Louis Newman was my maternal Great Grandfather, but has always been very elusive. On the 1891, 1901 and 1911 Censuses he says he was born in Carnarvon. I’ve never been able to find a birth or baptism for him.

                Searching for Newman Births in Carnarvon, I came across the Frederick Newman born 1844, and thought that he was worth pursuing as a potential Father?

                The first citing of Thomas Louis Newman on the 1891 Census in Dartford, Kent has him as a Lodger with the Stevens family. He married the daughter, Susan, who already had a 3 year old son Arthur.

                At some stage he met my Grandmother Frances Dyer, (1870 - 1944). They had 4 children, including my late Grandmother, Beatrice Minnie Newman (1902 - 1976). Frances and Thomas never married, and he died at home in Lewisham in 1917.

                Somehow, via him I think, I have masses of DNA matches in North Carolina and Tennessee, USA!

                I’m completely stuck with finding his family, - hence my Post.

                Comment


                  #9
                  can you post details of the census you have found him on please, couldn't find easily last night, so didn't search.

                  ahh William is a shot on the dark, the one that Kat has found I assume is the death, and may well be the registered birth too, as really not far away and name is not that common.

                  So maybe need to find another Newman, I can have a look around later today.

                  Check your settings maybe notifications are switched off, you change this thread by adding to your notifications.

                  Carolyn
                  Family Tree site

                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                    Is this the census for Thomas for 1911 that you have found?
                    https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...&rhSource=2352
                    Thomas Louis Newman 42 b Wales - House Decorator
                    Francis Newman 38
                    Beatrice Minnie Newman 9
                    Thomas Louis Newman 7
                    Alfred Burns Lowis Newman 2
                    Susan Rose Ellen Newman


                    NEWMAN, BEATRICE MINNIE mmn DYER
                    GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 1089

                    NEWMAN, THOMAS LOUIS mmn DYER
                    GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 1374
                    Yes, that’s the right family.

                    Holly.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Francis (sic) Newman is a visitor in Deptford married with son Walterb 1895 and dau Frances b 1900

                      https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...01&usePUB=true

                      NEWMAN, FRANCES CARRIE mmn DYER GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in STROOD Volume 02A Page 609
                      Cannot see a birth baptism for Walter at the moment.
                      Kat
                      https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Yes, that’s her.

                        She always thought that she was born in East Grinstead, mainly because she was taken there by her parents when she was 9months old. In fact she was born in Thirlston Road, Lewisham, London, but her Father came from East Grinstead.

                        Thomas Louis Newman is with wife Susan Newman, (Nee Stevens) on the 1901 Census. I’ll try and find it again.

                        Thanks for looking,
                        Holly.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Walter James Oliver was born in Castleford, Yorkshire in 1894.

                          I think that Frances travelled up there to give birth as ‘Mrs Oliver’. Possibly she stayed with someone she’d been in service with? I have the Baptism.

                          It’s easy for us to forget what a stigma illegitimacy was at that time:-(

                          Holly.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Ahh! Walter is Walter Oliver. His Army record shows mother as Frances Newman . He is with her as Oliver Walter (transcribed as Cliver) on 1939 register.
                            So Frances Newman had been married before to an Oliver?

                            1939 register birth given as 19 Aug 1893
                            https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=try&h=80419121939 census

                            Only birth I can find for Walter is :
                            OLIVER, WALTER JAMES mmn DYER
                            GRO Reference: 1893 S Quarter in PONTEFRACT Volume 09C Page 157


                            Army Record
                            https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...62&usePUB=true


                            Edit: Sorry you have this - I didn't refresh before posting!
                            Are you saying she gave a false name/father's name but wasn't married to an Oliver? What was the father's name on the baptism? not that it matters as we are searching for Newmans!!!
                            Last edited by Katarzyna; 06-08-20, 13:14.
                            Kat
                            https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                            Comment


                              #15
                              His dob ranges from 1862 -1869

                              This is Thomas 1891 census
                              https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...41&usePUB=true
                              1901 census with Susan
                              https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...44&usePUB=true
                              Last edited by Katarzyna; 06-08-20, 13:49.
                              Kat
                              https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                              Comment


                                #16
                                I don’t think that Frances Dyer ever married an Oliver!

                                It’s more likely that she plucked the name from thin air...

                                Only Frances is named, - just a line for Father.

                                It’s very curious that Thomas Louis Newman is nowhere to be found before 1891.

                                I have wondered about a name change?

                                On his Death Entry, in March 1917, his age is given as 42 years, but Frances is the Informant.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Holly View Post
                                  Thanks all for the replies. For some unknown reason I’m not getting sent notifications of replies any more.

                                  I’ve been digging away at this one for years...

                                  Thomas Louis Newman was my maternal Great Grandfather, but has always been very elusive. On the 1891, 1901 and 1911 Censuses he says he was born in Carnarvon. I’ve never been able to find a birth or baptism for him.

                                  Searching for Newman Births in Carnarvon, I came across the Frederick Newman born 1844, and thought that he was worth pursuing as a potential Father?

                                  The first citing of Thomas Louis Newman on the 1891 Census in Dartford, Kent has him as a Lodger with the Stevens family. He married the daughter, Susan, who already had a 3 year old son Arthur.

                                  At some stage he met my Grandmother Frances Dyer, (1870 - 1944). They had 4 children, including my late Grandmother, Beatrice Minnie Newman (1902 - 1976). Frances and Thomas never married, and he died at home in Lewisham in 1917.

                                  Somehow, via him I think, I have masses of DNA matches in North Carolina and Tennessee, USA!

                                  I’m completely stuck with finding his family, - hence my Post.


                                  What information do you have from his marriage certificate?
                                  Kat
                                  https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I don't think I've got that one. I'll ask my Cousin in Western Australia, - we split up ordering Certs between us.

                                    Holly.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                                      Ahh! Walter is Walter Oliver. His Army record shows mother as Frances Newman . He is with her as Oliver Walter (transcribed as Cliver) on 1939 register.
                                      So Frances Newman had been married before to an Oliver?

                                      1939 register birth given as 19 Aug 1893
                                      https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=try&h=80419121939 census

                                      Only birth I can find for Walter is :
                                      OLIVER, WALTER JAMES mmn DYER
                                      GRO Reference: 1893 S Quarter in PONTEFRACT Volume 09C Page 157


                                      Army Record
                                      https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...62&usePUB=true


                                      Edit: Sorry you have this - I didn't refresh before posting!
                                      Are you saying she gave a false name/father's name but wasn't married to an Oliver? What was the father's name on the baptism? not that it matters as we are searching for Newmans!!!
                                      Frances Dyer never married to my knowledge.

                                      She invented herself as Frances Oliver to record Walter James Oliver's Birth, and she called herself Frances Newman for the rest of her life after taking up with Thomas Louis Newman.

                                      Holly.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Holly View Post
                                        I don't think I've got that one. I'll ask my Cousin in Western Australia, - we split up ordering Certs between us.

                                        Holly.
                                        That certificate should confirm his occupation but more importantly his father's name and occupation.
                                        Kat
                                        https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                                        Comment

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