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Suzanne.Pritchard
19-01-13, 02:39
Hi Can anyone help me find Walter James Neale (born 1859 in York, Yorkshire, died 1939 Barnsley, Yorkshire) he worked as a law stationer and insurance writer and married twice Elizabeth Cousins in 1880 and Ethel Rose 1902. I can find him from 1880 onward but I can't find him before that. Also I can't find his parents. I know his Father was called William Neale and he was a Marine Engineer (as I ordered the 1902 marriage certificate) I don't know where he was from, I assume Yorkshire. Thank you for taking the time to read this, Suzanne

tms11
19-01-13, 07:31
Hi Suzanne,

Family Search have a 'Waller Neale' living with Luke Bell 40 Cattle Dealer b. Willberfoss, York and his wife Sarah 27 b. York as their Nephew. When you look at the transcript the name is Walter b. 1859 York. Address 4 Walmgate, York.


There is also a mention of Walters first Marriage to Elizabeth Cousins stating his fathers name was William Jackson Neale. There is no image of this Marriage.


Havn't found Walter in 1871 yet.


Regards, Ian

Frazzled
19-01-13, 11:17
Also on familysearch is a baptism of a William Jackson Neal on 28/5/1809 in Sharrington, Norfolk parents Francis Neal and Mary Jackson. Index no I078655

Macbev
19-01-13, 11:32
This line has some interest, I think.

Family search has only one Walter James NEALE, born 1859 in Yorkshire listed. However, there is only a mother named - Susan Neale - which made me wonder if there was actually no father.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/records/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22walter%20james%22~%20%2Bsu rname%3Aneal~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland%20%2Bb irth_place%3Ayorkshire~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1858-1860~

I looked for a Susan Neale in Ancestry and found a family in 1841, in which Susan has, among other, a sister Sarah, living with their widowed mother.
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1841&h=12908478&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8860

The same family may be found in 1851
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1851&h=10906921&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8978

and in 1861
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&h=11804509&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8860
.....when Susan is still living with her mother, but sister Sarah is missing.

Ancestry links the mother to a record in West Yorkshire Marriages and Banns, where there is a marriage between a Joseph NEAL and Sarah JACKSON

http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=2253&iid=32355_249411-01501&fn=Joseph&ln=Neal&st=r&ssrc=&pid=6723893

Unfortunately for the theory that was forming in my devious mind, I have not been able to find a Sarah Neale/Luke Bell marriage between 1851-1861 that would wrap evreything up nicely, but I'm still looking.

Perhaps the other bits will fit anyway and might explain why we can't find Walter at home with his father, the reputed William Jackson Neale.

Frazzled
19-01-13, 12:19
I was thinking the same thing Macbev as there are 2 other children listed on familysearch with just Susan as a parent, they are Alfred 1862 and Florence 1864.
I have found them in 1871 with Susan who is unmarried and a laundress. There is no sign of Walter.
Family living at East Court, Gate Fulford, Yorkshire Piece 4753, Folio 35 Page 14

Macbev
19-01-13, 12:26
There is a tree on Ancestry if this does turn out to be the correct line. Susan's father Joseph rose to be a butler...I suspect he was not able to have his family 'live in' as he appears on the various censuses at his place of employment.

Suzanne.Pritchard
19-01-13, 12:44
On the marriage certificate (1902 when he marries Ethel Rose) it states that her father is William Rose (deceased) but his father is just William Rose.

If he is not dead why would he never have lived with him? Just before he married Walter James Neale lived at 5 Clyde street, hull and worked as a Law Stationer.

Macbev
19-01-13, 14:01
If you are asking why Walter never lived with his father, I am theorising that his mother and father were not married...but if you are asking why Susan's father did not live with his family, I suspect servants at the time were expected to 'live in' at their place of employment...where wives and children were not welcome.

Of course, we have not yet proven your Walter is the Walter, son of Susan, shown on Familysearch. And neither have we verified that the Susan I found on the 1841,51, and 61 censuses is the mother of Walter I was looking for. It is just a possibility to follow up, given that she had two further children when still unmarried...and that her mother's maiden name was Jackson.

If I could find a connection between her sister Sarah and Luke Bell, I would think it was a matter of probabilities, rather than possibilities.

susan h
19-01-13, 15:04
Hi Suzanne, I'm assuming you don't have Walter's birth certificate? Sometimes, it really is essential to buy a cert otherwise you can find yourself tracing the wrong roots.

Suzanne.Pritchard
19-01-13, 15:18
Sorry I am really confused; if his mothers maiden name is Susan Neale why would he list his father as as an alive Marine Engineer called William Neale on the marriage certificate? I understand that he may not have lived with him but for both is mother and fathers last name to be Neale they would be married and so Susan Neale would have a different name from her mother wouldn't she?

It is very confusing. I was hoping that I could find a connection between Walter and William Neale as the only solid evidence I have is the marriage certificate.

susan h
19-01-13, 15:49
It is very confusing. I was hoping that I could find a connection between Walter and William Neale as the only solid evidence I have is the marriage certificate.

Which is why the birth certificate may help.

kylejustin
19-01-13, 15:52
you say you have the marriage to ethel, do you have the marriage to elizabeth? does it give the same information for the father? are the witnesses any help?

Suzanne.Pritchard
19-01-13, 16:03
There is a chance William Jackson Neale may have been in the merchant navy but I cant find the records for this ... are they on Ancestry??

Macbev
19-01-13, 16:33
Sorry to confuse you Suzanne. I agree with others that you need to get Walter's birth certificate to make sure you don't go down wrong family lines. And yes, Susan Neale may not be the parent of your Walter...but you will need to get that certificate to find out who was.

Much may be claimed on a marriage certificate that is not necessarily true. I have an instance in my own tree where a child (and his siblings) spent their entire life believing that the grandmother was actually his mother, when the birth certificate revealed it was , in fact, his older 'sister' who gave birth to him.

I also have several instances in my own tree where a child was registered and /or baptised with only a mother's name..and almost invariably, it turned out the mother was unmarried. In those circumstances, the child had to be registered under his mother's maiden name. And often, later in life, the child would 'invent' a father to put on his documents to disguise an illegitimate status. Not saying that this is necessarily the case for your Walter..but bear in mind it is a possible scenario.

It is also possible that a Susan Neale married a William Jackson Neale....cousins, or more distantly related people did marry.

Suzanne.Pritchard
19-01-13, 20:36
Hi I don't have the first marriage certificate I just have a transcription:

groom's name:
Walter James Neale (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN3W-JFJ)


groom's birth date:
1859


groom's birthplace:



groom's age:
21


bride's name:
Elizabeth Cousins (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN3W-JFF)


bride's birth date:
1860


bride's birthplace:



bride's age:
20


marriage date:
14 Jan 1880


marriage place:
Hull, Yorkshire, England


groom's father's name:
William Jackson Neale


groom's mother's name:



bride's father's name:
Henry Cole Cousins (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN3W-JFN)


bride's mother's name:



groom's race:



groom's marital status:



groom's previous wife's name:



bride's race:



bride's marital status:



bride's previous husband's name:



indexing project (batch) number:
M02035-3 (https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=+batch_number:M02035-3)


system origin:
England-EASy


source film number:
1657074


reference number:

Suzanne.Pritchard
19-01-13, 20:39
The only William Jackson Neale I can find is spelled Neal and is born in 1809 so probably wouldn't have been alive in 1902 for the second wedding. I think I might need to give in an order the birth certificate. I think William Jackson Neale may have been in the merchant navy but I am not sure how to find the records for this. I have a subscription to ancestry but I cant find anything. What happens on a census if the person is abroad or at sea?

susan h
19-01-13, 21:24
Suzanne, don't worry about spelling of names, they were spelled as interpreted by a clerk or scribe. Name spellings weren't standardised until early 20th century.

If a person was at sea on a royal naval ship, they should appear on census returns.

susan h
20-01-13, 00:26
No help in finding Walter's parents, but you may be interested to know there's an article in 'York Herald' 03 Oct 1884 which mentions Walter. It's about someone stealing ham property of the executors of the late Mr H C Cussons (possibly Elizabeth Cousins father?) charge proved by Mr Walter James Neale.


Do you have access to the British Library Newspaper database? If you are a member of a local library you may be able to access it at home using your library card number. If you have a problem accessing the database you can send me a PM.

susan h
20-01-13, 00:54
Have you seen in the index of wills on Ancestry - Henry Cole Cousins? Died 13 Sep 1884, probate date 5 Dec 1884. He left a personal estate of £13,170 5s 6d. Walter James Neale was an executor.

Suzanne.Pritchard
20-01-13, 01:05
OMG you guys are awesome at this!! I have spent the whole evening piecing it together but I think you are right! Walter James Neale's Mother was Susan Neale who was too young to look after an illegitimate child so he was looked after buy his aunt Sarah who had moved in with an Older man Luke Bell. Luke never married sarah although they seem to have lived together as husband and wife and when he died his probate record says he left all his money to Sarah Neale (Spinster). I think that as he was married before (in 1851 to Elizabeth) he could not marry Sarah. Then he died in 1861 and she married Robert Jowett in 1867!! Sarah's mothers maiden name was Jackson so I think he just made up the William Jackson Neale being the father and just told people he was in the Merchant navy! Now I just need to find him in 1971 ... could he maybe have been at boarding school? He trained somewhere as a Law stationer??????????

Suzanne.Pritchard
20-01-13, 02:15
Found him in 1871!! Living with his uncle Joe Neale (although he is down as his son)! Poor kid seems to have been shunted from one house to the next :-(

Thanks again for all your help guys!!

Macbev
20-01-13, 05:16
Well done locating the connection between Luke Bell and Sarah Neale, Suzanne....and a further connection with Joe Neale.

Do remember though, that even though you have moved into 'probabilities', it is still speculation and Walter's birth cert would still be at the top of my priorities.

kylejustin
20-01-13, 15:16
you've found half the details of the first marriage on familysearch. you need to get that cert for the father's occupation and the witnesses could help with family.

Suzanne.Pritchard
20-01-13, 16:43
Ordered them both today hopefully they will confirm this :-)

Suzanne.Pritchard
30-04-13, 16:23
Hi everyone,
I am still trying to finish this bit of my tree (after three months)!

I have found Walter James Neale and I have his birth certificate ... he was illegitimate.

I am now trying to find out what happened to his mother Susan Neale (b: April 1838 in York) and her sister Sarah (b: 1834 in York) to Joseph Neale (b: 9/3/1801) and Sarah Jackson (b: 1798ish)

I am struggling to find a death date for the sisters and their mother and I think the sisters married in York but I cannot find any evidence.

Thank you for taking the time to read this,

Suzanne

margaretmarch
30-04-13, 17:34
What have you got for them so far other than what you have stated.

Margaret

Darksecretz
30-04-13, 17:36
hi Suzanne,

I take it you have Susan/nah through the census? if so, which is the last census you have her on please

Suzanne.Pritchard
30-04-13, 18:15
For Sarah I have 1851&1861
For Susan a d her mother Sarah Neale (nee Jackson) I have 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871

... their father Joseph Neale is not on the census records as he was a servant somewhere nearby (can't find exactly where though).

JLTerry88
13-12-13, 18:05
Hi, I'm a descendant of Agnes Neale, daughter of Joe Neale, and having looked into her siblings, I can tell you that the WJ Neale living with Joe Neale in 1871, is Walter John Neale, Walter James' cousin, Walter John was 3/4 years older than Walter James, being born in 1855, to Joe and Ann Amelia Neale.
I have also looked into their cousins a little way, and this is what I have found so far on Walter James' brother and sister:
Alfred Neale born 23 March 1862, York, Yorkshire. Died 1934, Sculcoates, Yorkshire. Married 1890, Sculcoates Mary Harding born 1857, Hull, Yorkshire. [Alfred Neale and Mary had the following children: i. Florence Neale born 1890, Hull, Yorkshire. Died ? ii. Alfred Neale born 1895, Hull, Yorkshire. Died ? iii. Kate E Neale born 1897, Hull, Yorkshire. Died? [Mary Harding was a widow when she married Alfred, and already had the following children: i. Lillie Harding born 1881, Sunderland, Northumberland. Died ? ii. Mary Alice Harding born 1885, Aberdeen, Scotland. Died? iii. William W Harding born 1887, Aberdeen, Scotland. Died?] Florence Neale born1864, York, Yorkshire. Died ?
On the 1891 census, Florence Neale is working as a nurse, at the hospital on Monkgate, York, just around the corner from where her uncle Joe was living on Newbiggin Street, in the St Maurice part of the City of York.
I hope this is some help.
JTerry

JLTerry88
13-12-13, 18:09
Also, in 1871, there was a Robert Renison living with Susan Neale, Alfred and Florence, who is down as lodger, 37, General labourer of York. He may or may not be significant.