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  • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    When you say German names......do the names Gunter, von Dadelzsen, Michaux, appear? These are all on the Evans side.

    OC
    No, they don't so far as I recall. The name Braun came up more than once among the very distant cousins. Also the name Ruhn. Michaux is a French name. There was a French poet named Henri Michaux. The name Dadelsen is online but not with the spelling you have here; some born in Germany, others in France. But there could be a connection with the obviously German Gunter name.

    There were a couple of closer cousins, like 3rd cousins or something slightly more disant than the granddaughter of T.C. FIELD, but I want to find out more from them before sharing anything. One can't tell from a last name very much, unless you know it is in the famly tree, as it could be a spouse's name or an adoptive name, etc.
    Amelia

    My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

    Comment


    • Originally posted by zoomer View Post
      The name Braun came up more than once among the very distant cousins. Also the name Ruhn.
      It turns out, after closer checking, that the Brauns may be related to Germans on my father's side. The other name is Kuhn, not Ruhn, and also connected to my father's side. But it is interesting to know that there is a German name, Gunter, on the Evans side.
      Amelia

      My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
        Zoomer, it occurs to me that you will need to buy the marriage certificate for Charles Edward Saunders and Terence Elsie Hedges in order to take their tree back further as there are simply too many Charles Edward Saunders to choose from- and not one Terence Elsie Hedges, lol.

        OC
        My half-cousin, who told me about the SAUNDERS ancestry on William's mother's side, said that it would be too far back to be worth getting this marriage certificate. It would proably be someone living in the 1700s.

        I think Ancestry DNA is better for those with a lot of American ancestors. On my father's side Ancestry has told me about hundreds of distantly related cousins based on my DNA. There were only a couple of people distantly related to William's mother and I have not gotten any information from them as of yet. So I'm back to square one. I may never know for sure who my great-grandmother was. But as more people get tested, I could learn something further down the road. I can only hope.
        Amelia

        My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

        Comment


        • Oh right, I think we all assumed that the Saunders connection was contemporary with William. I will discard my notes then.

          If I were you, which I am not, of course, I would be compelled to contact the lady who wrote about Selby House, to find out more about the nursery maid who left in a hurry. Such a strong clue, linking known facts to the family story you have been told! Otherwise, as you say, you will just have to hope something turns up.

          OC

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
            Oh right, I think we all assumed that the Saunders connection was contemporary with William. I will discard my notes then.

            If I were you, which I am not, of course, I would be compelled to contact the lady who wrote about Selby House, to find out more about the nursery maid who left in a hurry. Such a strong clue, linking known facts to the family story you have been told! Otherwise, as you say, you will just have to hope something turns up.

            OC
            How would I contact her?
            Amelia

            My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
              Oh right, I think we all assumed that the Saunders connection was contemporary with William. I will discard my notes then.

              If I were you, which I am not, of course, I would be compelled to contact the lady who wrote about Selby House, to find out more about the nursery maid who left in a hurry. Such a strong clue, linking known facts to the family story you have been told! Otherwise, as you say, you will just have to hope something turns up.

              OC
              I assumed the same thinking that the mother's father or mother could have been a Saunders born about the mid-19th century and not so far back as the 1700s. I took a look at some current people named Saunders and thought that I could see some slight family resemblances but read too much into this.
              Amelia

              My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                Battery still not charged up.

                Selby House papers being closed is a big blow. Redacted will not be any use.

                My current scenario, lol, is that the nursemaid at Selby House became pregnant by some so far unidentified member of the wider Field/Noble family, possibly a Watson relative and was paid off, the baby eventually being placed with the Mumfords.

                OC
                How would I learn more about this story. Can you send me a link, OC? You can try to contact me privately if you like.
                Amelia

                My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                Comment


                • Margaret Frood was the author of the articles on the Ham Remembers website, she also has an article about the Fricker family as well as the Nobles of Selby House.

                  She is a professional researcher so I expect she would like to be paid, lol, but she might be prepared to answer a simple question like "what year did the nursemaid leave Selby House?". If the year is wrong, then that's a dead end. But I bet it's not. Too much of a coincidence with Fields and Frickers all in the same area.

                  Just google Margaret Frood to find her contact details.

                  OC

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                    Margaret Frood was the author of the articles on the Ham Remembers website, she also has an article about the Fricker family as well as the Nobles of Selby House.

                    She is a professional researcher so I expect she would like to be paid, lol, but she might be prepared to answer a simple question like "what year did the nursemaid leave Selby House?". If the year is wrong, then that's a dead end. But I bet it's not. Too much of a coincidence with Fields and Frickers all in the same area.

                    Just google Margaret Frood to find her contact details.

                    OC
                    She has an article about the FRICKER family? Did you mean to say the FIELD famly? If she mentioned both names in her articles then this is significant. The Fricker name is not all that common. It is possible that the barrister story got passed down because maybe the barrister in the famliy arranged the private adoption and was not actually the father of the inconvenient child. I realize that the DNA only proves that the first Joshua Field, the famous British engineer, was an ancestor. I will look for this online. Thank you! I hope she will answer this one simple question for free. If I read it I might get some other clues as well. I believe that Isabella worked for a member of the Field famliy, this is where the story of the wealthy ship builder famliy came from, and they could have hired Joseph Fricker as well - both from South Stoneham. They both moved up quickly to a nice middle class life in a small Ontario town after they sailed to Canada in 1907. Would love to know who paid for the passage, but some things can never be known.
                    Amelia

                    My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                    Comment


                    • There was a family called Fricker in Ham. I cannot see an immediate close connection but I haven't looked far. It is such an unusual name however, that I would be astonished if there was no connection somewhere between them and Joseph Fricker. The father of the Ham Frickers was a boat varnisher.

                      OC

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                        There was a family called Fricker in Ham. I cannot see an immediate close connection but I haven't looked far. It is such an unusual name however, that I would be astonished if there was no connection somewhere between them and Joseph Fricker. The father of the Ham Frickers was a boat varnisher.

                        OC
                        Joseph Fricker, William's 2nd adoptive father, or foster father, was born in South Stoneham where Telford Field died, I believe. The Fricker name is also quite common in the Isle of Wight where William Watson/Mumford/Fricker, who was actually a Field descendant, lived as a toddler; the Cowes census of 1901 being the earliest proof of his existence when he was allegedly 3 years old, and this was at the end of March when the census was done. I would also be suprised if there is no connection between the Fricker famliy of Ham & Joseph Fricker of South Stoneham near Southampton, though I would not go so far as to say that I would be "astonished." It certainly is worth looking into.
                        Last edited by zoomer; 23-12-18, 19:25.
                        Amelia

                        My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                          Post #298 on this thred - you say that dna evidence shows that William Fricker and Telford Charles Field were first cousins but I wonder if the dna results have been correctly interpreted? OC
                          I was mistaken when I initially believed that William and Telford Charles Field were cousins. For the sake of living relatives, I can not give more details about who William's father likely was.
                          Amelia

                          My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                          Comment


                          • Are you now saying that his father wasn't a member of the Field family and you aren't going to tell us who he was and how you know????? You cannot libel a dead person remember.

                            OC

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                              Are you now saying that his father wasn't a member of the Field family and you aren't going to tell us who he was and how you know????? You cannot libel a dead person remember.

                              OC
                              Yes, his father was a FIELD and a descendant of Joshua FIELD I. I believe, based on new information, I know exactly who William's father was but for the sake of living cousins I cannot be more specific at the present time. I wish I could say more, but I wanted to at least correct a past mistake made when I had less information. Discretion makes it more likely that I will learn new facts or, hopefully, see some photos of not too distant ancestors and their close relations. ;)
                              Amelia

                              My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                              Comment


                              • Well, he is named in this thread of course.......

                                OC

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                  Well, he is named in this thread of course.......

                                  OC
                                  There is more than one possibility, but new information narrows it down considerably. Took awhile for me to get a better understanding of how DNA testing works and what is meant by a very high probablitiy 3rd or 4th cousin. I would love to know more about the Evans-Freke baronage line but I have not been able to figure out which Lord So & So I may be descended from. That is far enough back as not to possibly offend anyone living today. I wonder if it is worth going in the other direction starting from the Lords themselves and their descendants. I know this is generally not recommended in a genealogical search..
                                  Amelia

                                  My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                  Comment


                                  • It turns out now that there may be a genetic link now that I have had my DNA tested. The Southampton solicitor named COOPER apparently had an ancestor named SAUNDERS, a name that I previously mentioned with a genetic link to William Fricker's mother. I don't know all the details yet. My half-cousin is looking into it. If my grandfather met his biological grandfather, it could have been the solicitor. It could not have been anyone from the FIELD side during that time period. (WWI)
                                    Amelia

                                    My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by zoomer View Post
                                      It turns out now that there may be a genetic link now that I have had my DNA tested. The Southampton solicitor named COOPER apparently had an ancestor named SAUNDERS, a name that I previously mentioned with a genetic link to William Fricker's mother. I don't know all the details yet.
                                      The Southampton solicitor was Ernest Edwin COOPER (1854-1823) who had a daughter, Jessie COOPER (1875-1904). There are other posts on this thread about them.The mother's name was Elizabeth McHaffie (1853-1900). I searched my 'Surnames in Matches' Trees' with 'England' and 'Hampshire, England' as locations, and while I found many COOPER + Hampshire, England distant cousins (who simply have the name COOPER in their trees, and their COOPERs came from 'Hants'), my half-cousin did not find any COOPERs whatsoever, even without any location. COOPER is too common a name and my matches could be on other branches of my family. I did not find any matches using this method for anyone named McHaffie, even as a search without any location. It is a relatively uncommon name. This method can sometimes tease out information about unknown ancestors, but works better when the surnames are more uncommon based on statistical odds.

                                      I did find a distant cousin in the 4th-6th cousin range who is related to both my half-cousin and I; he is living so I can not give his name. He has SAUNDERS ancestry, as does E.E. COOPER, the solicitor. This cousin's SAUNDERS ancestor married someone named REEKS (an odd name) and I have that surname in some of my matches matches trees. I am also finding many, many matches (nearly 200) with the surname CHARLEY, which is also on the same man's tree, but I don't know yet if my half-cousin has had similar results. All of these distant cousins (with the surname CHARLEY in their trees) are in the 5th - 8th cousin range so this would mean we have a 4th-7th great grandather as a common ancestor, someone born in the early 1800s at the latest, more likely during the 1700s.

                                      The maps attached to these cousins often have one or both of two locations:, Leicester and London. I checked a surname distribution in England website and indeed, there are more people named CHARLEY in Leicester than anywhere else in England. This is not much to go on, I know. I wonder if I will ever find out who William's mother was, but I don't think, based on the latest evidence, that it could have been Jessie COOPER. It is quite possible that she and I both had a common SAUNDERS ancestor, but that is all. But it was worthwhile to re-explore this possibility.
                                      Amelia

                                      My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                        Post #298 on this thred - you say that dna evidence shows that William Fricker and Telford Charles Field were first cousins but I wonder if the dna results have been correctly interpreted? OC
                                        I initially misinterpreted the DNA evidence. It takes awhile to start to really understand what it all means. It took some time but my half-cousin showed me that it is quite likely (virtually certain) that Telford Charles FIELD, son of Telford FIELD as William's biological father. He had illegitimate children and it is through one of the living descendants on this line that the mystery of William's father was solved.

                                        T. C. FIELD had a summer home on the Isle of Wight. If the April 1898 birth for William is reliable ( he was 2 going on 3 at the time of the 1901 census), then this was a summer conception. I am guessing that it likely took place on the Isle of Wight. The biological mother could either have been a local girl, or the daughter of a family on holidays.

                                        The only thing known for sure is that there was distant SAUNDERS ancestry on the mother's side. There is no DNA evidence for COOPER ancestry. I am completely setting aside the "garderner's daughter named COOPER" story because William's adoptive mother did not demonstrate honesty in other areas of her life. While I have the name COOPER in the family trees of some distant DNA cousins, my half-cousin does not. So I doubt there is actually COOPER ancestry. I have found some recent evidence for a distant ancestor named CHARLEY, but this is yet to be confirmed.
                                        Amelia

                                        My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                        Comment


                                        • I am certain now that Jessie COOPER was William's biological mother. First of all because DNA evidence proves a link to her SAUNDERS ancestors, Secondly because a newly discovered memoir from William's wife states clearly that the mother's name was COOPER, and also because of the social conections shown to me on this forum. For a long time I had another theory that I was reluctant to give up based on a family rumour which I never disclosed. But DNA does not lie. The chances that any SAUNDERS ancestor had a female descendant of the right age and gender also named COOPER is too unlikely to be considered. Jessie Cooper's mother was Elizabeth Phoebe McHaffie born late 1852 acording to freebmd record, but other records have her born a year later in another location. Puzzling. Jessie's father was Ernest Edwin COOPER, a solicitor in Southampton.

                                          I apologize for having exasperating those helping me. I thank you all for your help. I wanted there to be closure to this saga. If there are further comments or questions please reply.
                                          Last edited by zoomer; 31-12-22, 04:12. Reason: minor typos corrected.
                                          Amelia

                                          My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                          Comment

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