Joseph Charles Fricker

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I find it hard to believe that Joshua Leslie Field was William's father. JLF appears to have had no legitimate children, which makes it rather sad that he did not fully acknowledge William or do more for him.

OC

I find it easy to believe that JLF was William's father. It sounds like he did not exactly have a way with women, at least not enough to marry one, though it seems he may have forced his way with one of the young women in domestic service. It is sad that he did not acknowledge my grandfather. I have always known, from the little passed down, that these were wealthy, bu not nice people. If he had fathered any children then this would give more opportunities to match DNA.

Now that I know as much as is possible at present to know about my great-grandfather, I will try to find out which person named SAUNDERS that my half-cousin and I are related to. She has been a godsend because she shares my interest in genealogy. She gave me the information last year, I just need to find it again. Once everyone knows who this was you can figure out which John Saunders was the ancestor, and then perhaps you wiill come up with a new interesting theory about how and perhaps where my grandfather's conception took place.

I have not given up on the story of the gardener's daughter who had red hair whose name may have been SAUNDERS, or possibly she was a Cooper (as family legend says) but biologically a Saunders. We shalll see. I did find a gardener's daughter named Emily Jane Cooper of Hampshire Co. but she would have been quite young to have had a baby, not impossibly young, however. My grandmother probably had dementia when she wrote the bits that she remembered. It could have simply been that Isabella Newman worked for someone named Cooper at one time and that this had absolutely nothing to do with my family.

[Olde Crone Holden]

So you don't think it's worth pursuing the Selby House coincidences?

Joshua Leslie had seven brothers anf four of them were definitely dead by 1918.

I can understand your anger at what appears to be shabby treatment of your grandfather but take a breath and consider the facts. The family did what could be expected of them in that day and age, given their position in society. They could so easily have dismissed the girl and she would have finished up in the workhouse, or worse. They discreetly provided for the boy and put him with decent foster parents and who knows what else they did for him. I also think that his natural mother wasn't necessarily taken advantage of, you can't know that. Love (and lust!) strikes at random just as much then as it does now.

I think Kenneth Douglas is far more likely to be William's father but that is just a hunch. As you say, it would need dna testing to prove it.

OC

[zoomer]

So you don't think it's worth pursuing the Selby House coincidences?

Joshua Leslie had seven brothers anf four of them were definitely dead by 1918.

I can understand your anger at what appears to be shabby treatment of your grandfather but take a breath and consider the facts. The family did what could be expected of them in that day and age, given their position in society. They could so easily have dismissed the girl and she would have finished up in the workhouse, or worse. They discreetly provided for the boy and put him with decent foster parents and who knows what else they did for him. I also think that his natural mother wasn't necessarily taken advantage of, you can't know that. Love (and lust!) strikes at random just as much then as it does now.

I think Kenneth Douglas is far more likely to be William's father but that is just a hunch. As you say, it would need dna testing to prove it.

OC

I would not say it is not worth it to pursue the Selby House connections, however, I think it makes sense to find out what is possible to know about the SAUNDERS connection, one learned about through DNA evidence, once I find the names to give you. What was the profession of KDF? Did he have children? You are correct to say that the way my grandfather was treated was typical of the time, and he was raised well in a good home, but it was such a disappointment to him to not be accepted by the family because of his illegitimate birth. What makes me angry the most is that he was lied to by someone claiming to be his grandfather and this happened about one hundred years ago. Even if JLF was his father, the name Watson might have come to the mind of whomever gave him that name because they knew about the Selby House Watsons and their name just popped into their heads - starts with the same letter as William, and the claim that he was born in a district of Portsmouth could also have been invented. There is no birth certificate to match these detials as you know.

Who would you think might have arranged for the child to be cared for by Isabella Newman and Wm Mumford? A solicitor? A member of the clergy? What was typical of the time? My hunch is that Mumford did not pick the name, it was told to Isabella, and she used her connections with the domestic service grapevine to find out the real story. I am glad that Isabella did not stay with Mr. Mumford as she was able to have a better life in Canada with her alleged husband Joseph C. Fricker. I believe she had correspondence with someone in the FIELD family or at least remembered where to find them so that William could meet with someone.

[Olde Crone Holden]

KDF was a professional soldier and yes, he did have children, two daughters who married two Watson brothers. His wife's father was a solicitor.

In those days and in their social position, everything would have been done through a solicitor, for the sake of discretion, not just for the father's sake but for the mother's sake too. A servant who had given birth was virtually unemployable if it was known, no matter whether she was completely innocent.

I have a similar case in my own family and in fact the father was Lord Lieutenant of the County too, just like JLF. I was able to discover the truth because mine was baptised and the vicar recorded the real father's name. As the vicar was the real father's brother, I trust this fact! The birth certificate was a work of fiction. His natural father never publicly acknowledged him but made very good provision for him in his will, without making any reference to the fact that this was his illegitimate son. He had two more illegitimate children who he called his god children and he eventually married their mother after the death of his wife. The difference was one of class - mine was working class, the "god children" were upper class.

OC

[Katarzyna]

Have sent you a pm Amelia.

[zoomer]

KDF was a professional soldier and yes, he did have children, two daughters who married two Watson brothers. His wife's father was a solicitor.

In those days and in their social position, everything would have been done through a solicitor, for the sake of discretion, not just for the father's sake but for the mother's sake too. A servant who had given birth was virtually unemployable if it was known, no matter whether she was completely innocent.

I have a similar case in my own family and in fact the father was Lord Lieutenant of the County too, just like JLF. I was able to discover the truth because mine was baptised and the vicar recorded the real father's name. As the vicar was the real father's brother, I trust this fact! The birth certificate was a work of fiction. His natural father never publicly acknowledged him but made very good provision for him in his will, without making any reference to the fact that this was his illegitimate son. He had two more illegitimate children who he called his god children and he eventually married their mother after the death of his wife. The difference was one of class - mine was working class, the "god children" were upper class.

OC

Your own family history was very interesting!

[zoomer]

Have sent you a pm Amelia.

Thank you I have received it and I am happy to have a FIELD family tree nicely laid out.

[zoomer]

This is where you can find probates and order wills

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk...rch=True#wills

I have sent this information on to my half-cousin to look into. Thank you.

[zoomer]

Now that I know as much as is possible at present to know about my great-grandfather, I will try to find out which person named SAUNDERS that my half-cousin and I are related to. She has been a godsend because she shares my interest in genealogy. She gave me the information last year, I just need to find it again. Once everyone knows who this was you can figure out which John Saunders was the ancestor, and then perhaps you wiill come up with a new interesting theory about how and perhaps where my grandfather's conception took place.

Here is the information I have that was sent to my half-cousin as a message from a DNA relative, and the nature of the relationship is not given. (It was not from ancestrydna). It is a bit hard to decipher:

John Saunders father was Felix Lovell Stanley Saunders. His grandfather was Charles Edward Saunders. His mother's maiden name was Sylvia Elsie Lillian Dickenson, born in London, lived in Yorkshire initially, but her mother moved to Salisbury, Hampshire"

It does not state clearly whose mother was a DICKENSEN, but this can be figured out easily enough. It is the SAUNDERS famliy that I am connected to, most likely the mother's side of my grandfather's family tree. I wish you success with this to dig up something new and interesting.

I did some digging of my own and recall that I found 5 ancestral John Saunders, and I was not able to determine which one was the father of Charles Edward Saunders. I wish I knew in what way these people are cousins. John Saunders, the younger, is some kind of distant cousin living in the USA. He has not kept in touch with my half-cousin after sharing this information.

[zoomer]

So you don't think it's worth pursuing the Selby House coincidences?

Joshua Leslie had seven brothers anf four of them were definitely dead by 1918.

I think Kenneth Douglas is far more likely to be William's father but that is just a hunch. As you say, it would need dna testing to prove it.

OC

If there are descendants of Kenneth Douglas FIELD who ever have their DNA tested it would clear up the mystery. Unfortunately Joshua Leslie FIELD did not have any known descendants other than (possibly) my grandfather.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Well, the only thing I can find out of that is the birth of

Felix L S Saunders in Sept 1929, Steyning 2b 395. Mother's maiden name Hedges.

No corresponding marriage for Charles Edward Saunders to Hedges...there is a 1924 entry but the Hedges is a male. (Unless there has been a transcription error).

This looks pertinent though -

Charles Edward Saunders to Mary Ann Lovell June 1907 Malmesbury 5a 116.

Perhaps Charles did not marry Felix's mother, or perhaps she was previously married.

Can't find any of the other names you mention.

OC

[zoomer]

Well, the only thing I can find out of that is the birth of

Felix L S Saunders in Sept 1929, Steyning 2b 395. Mother's maiden name Hedges.

No corresponding marriage for Charles Edward Saunders to Hedges...there is a 1924 entry but the Hedges is a male. (Unless there has been a transcription error).

This looks pertinent though -

Charles Edward Saunders to Mary Ann Lovell June 1907 Malmesbury 5a 116.

Perhaps Charles did not marry Felix's mother, or perhaps she was previously married.

Can't find any of the other names you mention.

OC

Thanks for looking. I don,t know how they connect in any way to the FIELD family. I just sent of my own sample for DNA testing. Perhaps in time there will be a new line of inquiry, or at least a confirmation that I have SAUNDERS ancestry.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Ah, Sylvia was born in 1930. That's a bit too recent for this forum I think, as she could well be still alive.

OC

[Chrissie Smiff]

Thank you OC, I haven't been following this closely but it seems ok as I believe this is Sylvia in 1939 (died 1996 Worthing as Saunders) - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

Father Alfred W Dickenson and mother Daisy K Charles. It looks as though Sylvia may have had three siblings who are possibly still alive, as they are redacted.

[Chrissie Smiff]

Pheww - I also wondered if Felix (Sylvia's husband) could still be alive and have had to trawl the wills for his death -
Felix Lovell Stanley Saunders - Date of Probate 30 December 2013 - Probate Number 4232836 - Date of Death 26 September 2013 Grant and will Brighton

[Chrissie Smiff]

This is them travelling back from Venezuela - it seems he worked for the Shell company -

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1518/30807_A001442-00067?pid=3054000&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3DBT26%26h%3D3054000%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D7579&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

[Olde Crone Holden]

Thanks Chrissie! Perhaps the marriage was overseas then?

I also found this, which may or may not be relevant because of the area:

Charles Edward Saunders to Edith Mary Ball Sept 1907 South Stoneham 2c 158.

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

Chrissie, can you see Felix in 1939 please? I am beginning to suspect his parents are George and Beatrice!

Going out now, back later!

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

OK, maybe another red herring but..

Charles Edward Saunders to Mary Ann Lovell June 1907.

(Felix has the middle name Lovell.)

Mary Ann Lovell born 1890 mmn COOPER.

OC

[Jill on the A272]

Well, the only thing I can find out of that is the birth of

Felix L S Saunders in Sept 1929, Steyning 2b 395. Mother's maiden name Hedges.

No corresponding marriage for Charles Edward Saunders to Hedges...there is a 1924 entry but the Hedges is a male. (Unless there has been a transcription error).



OC

The 1924 marriage Saunders/Hedges marriage appears to be to a male, Terence E Hedges but the 1939 register has Terence E Saunders b 6 Oct 1903 (Elsie T written in afterwards and another surname, Cooper, from her 1944 remarriage as Terence E Saunders. She is head of household, married, also in the household Anne E Saunders (later Thomas) b19 Dec 1927 and Charles E Saunders b 25 Sep 1933. They are at 20 Brighton Road, Shoreham by Sea, Sussex.