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  • Joseph Charles Fricker

    Joseph Charles Fricker, b 22 mar 1883 in South Stoneham, Hampshire. In 1911 he is in Canada, married to Isabel, with children William and Adeline, and brother Harry.

    http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...c=&pid=6595908

    According to the census, Joseph (b.mar 1881) and Isabell b.Jan 1881 travelled out to Canada in 1907. Son William was born in Apr 1899 in England

    According to Adeline's birth in 1910, her mother was Isabel Newman. Her parents were married in 1898 in England. However Joseph was only 15 in 1898, and in 1901 was still single, living with parents. http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...c=&pid=2421131

    In 1915 William Fricker is in the Canadian army, and lists his NOK as his mother Isabel Fricker. His place of birth is Southampton, and his dob is April 17 1897. http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.c....asp?ID=105891

    Now I noticed in the 1901 census for Joseph, http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...c=&pid=1133635 next door to Joseph was Walter Newman, the 22 year old son in law of the head of house. Walter has a sister, Isabella, but she was born in 1873. http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...c=&pid=6896018

    So my (eventual) question is, do you think it possible that Isabella lied about her age, and they both lied about the date of the marriage and Williams age on the 1911 census. Can anyone find anything to support this theory or anything that disproves it. I did find a birth for a William Henry Newman in Sep 1897 in Southampton, who could have become William Fricker. I can't find anything else for this family that gives any more info.
    Linda


    My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

  • #2
    I have found people lying on their census. One person in particular lied a great deal both about his age and place of birth.

    Comment


    • #3
      I have just found this - http://www.vex.net/~jyd/web-scripts/22-Bill.htm, and this http://www.yulokod.ca/sunny/Phyllis/...%20Fricker.htm

      Can anyone find the Coopers in Cowes who were shipbuilders, or Isabella born in Cowes? The Isabella I found above, was working as a scullery maid in 1891, in London, for the Earl of Londesborough.
      Linda


      My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

      Comment


      • #4
        Could this be Isabel in 1901, she's born Bournemouth but a couple of people in the household were born IOW. And they are living IOW

        Last edited by Guest; 23-08-12, 02:04.

        Comment


        • #5
          I found a couple marrying in London in the late 19C who are both shown as 19 on the marriage records, but census and birth records proved that he was 17 and she was 15 (just ....and heavily pregnant). They were the teenage children of neighbours. People lied about their age all the time on records, for all sorts of reasons (especially to make things difficult for genealogists, or so it seems sometimes).
          Last edited by AntonyM; 23-08-12, 07:59.
          Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
          Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

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          • #6
            Originally posted by susan h View Post
            Could this be Isabel in 1901, she's born Bournemouth but a couple of people in the household were born IOW. And they are living IOW

            http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...rc=&pid=901818
            Forget the above, she married Thomas Jackman in 1901 and is on the 1911 census.

            BTW, I haven't found any Cooper's who were shipbuilders in IOW.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks Susan and Antony - I couldn't see any Coopers who were ship builders either. I had a quick look last night but couldn't find anything that would tie in with the story. I tried looking for Canadians who were in the Royal Flying Corps/RAF in WWI but can't find anything on them either.
              Linda


              My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

              Comment


              • #8
                The biggest, or known shipbuilders on IOW 19th century were the White family, http://www.iwight.com/council/depart...es/default.asp

                Could a White female have married a Cooper? According to link I provided "During the 1880s White's lost a good deal of their repair work to the new docks at Southampton. To compensate the company filled in its docks at West Cowes and developed the engineering part of their business, building steam engines, boilers and diesel engines."

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                • #9
                  Linda Hi,

                  I have found Joseph Charles Fricker's death in Canada but not Isabel/Isabella's. Have you found Isabel's death?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    No, but according to the story she didn't die until 1954 when she was 84, giving a dob of 1870 - 10 years earlier than that in the 1911 census. Also in the story it said that she had 6 brothers and 2 sisters, which coincidentally matches the family I originally found. Also, 2 of Isabella brothers in 1891 are gardeners/"working in gentlemans garden". I do think it quite likely that Isabella was Williams mother, and they used some of the truth in the story.
                    Linda


                    My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This has to be them on Ancestry 'Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935 Record for Jos Ficker' http://search.ancestry.ca/iexec?htx=...c=&pid=6780598

                      Jos Ficker 28, Mrs Ficker 32, Wm Ficker 9. They arrived 25th Oct 1907 at Montreal on the Tunisian, and sailed from Liverpool, destination: Mount Forest Ont.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ooh yes, that certainly does look like them. Thanks Susan
                        Linda


                        My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I am fascinated by your interest in my grandfather, William FRICKER and his adoptive parents, Isabella NEWMAN & Joseph FRICKER. William was born April 17, 1898 to the best of my knowledge. I have never seen or heard of a birth certificate for him. He lied about his age when he joined the Royal Canadian Expeditionary Force in 1915. It was common for young men to do so at the time. I have a copy of a birth certificate for Isabella NEWMAN b. 1883, but no online link. I am not sure if I can cut & paste a copy on this forum. I am new here. Next time I will give you more details if you are still interested in this subject. She was born in St. Mary Extra parish of South Stoneham, Swaything district.

                          I have learned more about South Stoneham where Isablla was born. It was a poor parish and a few NEWMANs, quite possibly relations of Isabella, can be found in the 1881 census for the South Stoneham Union, i.e. the poorhouse. I think Isabella would have done far worse than fudge some facts about her birth date to escape such a possibility. She became the nanny of William, according to family tradition and this was the best thing that could possibly have happened to her as a 14 or 15 year old girl. She was probably initially hired as a wet-nurse which means that she herself had given birth. My mother, Sonia Brock, believes she was William's mother but I do not believe so. I have seen a photo of Addie (FRICKER) STEELE (Adeline) and she does not look like any of us with her high broad forehead. I don't think it is piossible to learn anything about Isabella's natural child or what became of him or her. Isabella & Joseph were obviously too young to have married and become the biological parents of William. Addie & Harry were their natural children. I know nothing of Harry. William was confirmed at age 15, I recall, in the Anglican church in Mt. Forest, a small Ontario town. I had not known that Isabella's family members lived in the same town and the gardener info is very interesting. I think that facts and fiction have been all mixed up in the family accounts as often happens. It is for people like us to separate fact from fiction wherever possible.

                          William was reportedly born in Southampton, in 1898, a few kms. southwest of South Stoneham. William grew up in "Cowes" according to my grandmother's handwritten account of what William told her before he died in 1978. It was probably East Cowes as he grew up with more wealthy people. The account says that the family's name was COOPER and they were "moneyed" shipbuilders but I have not found any wealthy shipbuilding families named COOPER in East or WEST Cowes. The account also says that the mother's family name ( the biological mother) was named COOPER and this I think it plausible. The name COOPER is found with frequency in South Stoneham and on the Isle of Wight. But it is such a common name and I think it would be nearly impossible to learn more. There was a Mary Cooper who was a resident at the poorhouse in South Stoneham who was a teenager in 1881.

                          There is an interesting geographical fact I discovered on maps.google.com and that it the parish of St. Mary's (no longer called Extra) is on the banks of the Itchen River which joins to the Test River which flows down to the harbour of Southampton. It would have been very feasible for Isabella to have been taken by yacht directly from St. Mary Extra to Southampton William had been born, or to Cowes on the northern side of the Isle of Wight. The rector of St, Mary Extra could have been involved in finding Isabella. William Henry Newman b. 1897 that you mentioned may or may not have been Isabella's natural child but I am almost certain that he was not William my grandfather.

                          DNA evidence, the Y-test of William's only son revealed his father's ancestry to be Norman and the possible family names to be FIELD(S), LAMB or LEWIS. All these names are found with frequency in the counties near Hastings where the Norman invasion accured. Some Normans apparently fathered children who came to become members of FIELD(S), LAMB & LEWIS famlies. Not everyone with Norman ancestry has to necessarily have a Norman name as DNA evidence proves.

                          William's father was said to be a barrister. If I could find a list of all practicing barristers for 1897 for all of Hants & IOW (Hampshire County including the Isle of Wight) then I could narrow down the possibilities, especially if any of the 3 family names above turn up. William's biological grandfather helped him get a start in life by purchasing an officer's commission for him to become a Lt. in what became the RAF. William flew in the Channel Patrol division in WWI. I sometimes think he must have hoped for a permanent solution to the dilemna of what to do about William. But William not only survived but went on to train pilots in WWII. My mother tried to obtain information about who this hidden benefactor during WWI was, however, the name was blacked out and very litle information revealed. I do not understand the reason for such secrecy. It was a most frustrating discovery for our family.

                          Any information you could add would be MOST appreciated. I am curious to know how you learned about my grandfather, William, and how you are connected to him or his biological or adoptive family? I don't know if you are still interested in these topics since you posted in 2012, but I hope so.
                          Amelia

                          My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

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                          • #14
                            Hi Zoomer, and welcome to the forum. I had to re-read this thread to remind myself of this family! My link with the family is through Joseph Fricker. His mother was Charlotte Jones, b. 1849 in South Stoneham, and her father, John Jones b 1816 South Stoneham was brother to my 3xGreatGrandmother, another Charlotte Jones. I have managed to trace the Jones line back to the early 1600's, they mostly came from the South Hampshire area. One of the families that married in was also a reasonably well known Quaker family, which was also very interesting.

                            I was tracing the Jones family down through the generations, which is how I eventually came to Joseph and Isabella Fricker, and from that I found the online stories. If you would like more info do let me know.
                            Linda


                            My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just as an aside - I really would not put any faith in the the Ydna"evidence". It is completely irrelevant to your search to know whether someone is of Norman descent and suggested surnames are even less relevant. An autosomal DNA test might give you more chance of a match, but only MIGHT.

                              OC

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Thanks for your reply. Will be in touch later this week.
                                Amelia

                                My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Yes, I have seen this before, however the name should be FRICKER. Thank you for posting it, nonetheless. According to Isabella (NEWMAN) FRICKER's birth cerificate, which I have a copy of, she was born in 1883 in parish of St. Mary Extra in South Stoneham, Hampshire, and would have actually been 24, not 32 years old in Oct. of 1907. But it would have appeared strange to claim to be the mother of a 9 year old at the age of 24. She was originally the nanny for young William, my late grandfather. I myself live in Montréal and wonder how my city first appeared to him as a 9 year old.
                                  Amelia

                                  My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Why do you distrust the Ydna test? I was not searching for Norman descent - just a possible family name of my grandfather's biological father's family. The name FIELD most likely according to the test which you do not "put any faith in" for whatever reason.
                                    Amelia

                                    My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I am trying to dig up the confirmation record of William FRICKER. I have it somewhere in my files. He was 15 at the time and confirmed not long before he joined up to serve in WWI. It serves to show 1) that he was living in Mt. Forest 6 years after his arrival, as was your ancestor Isabella (NEWMAN) FRICKER, his adoptive mother. It also shows that Isabella was not exactly a pious Anglican as most confirmed earlier.
                                      Amelia

                                      My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I put no faith in the DNA test because it has already given you three possible surnames ( rather than just one!) and of course, it can only pick surnames from people who have been tested, not from the general population. You also said that the Norman invasion was a likely factor in the area.

                                        As I said, an autosomal test is probably the only DNA test relevant to your search. Ydna results are far too vague to be of any help other than as a comparison between two specific men.

                                        OC

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