Joseph Charles Fricker

[zoomer]

I have just found this - http://www.vex.net/~jyd/web-scripts/22-Bill.htm, and this http://www.yulokod.ca/sunny/Phyllis/...%20Fricker.htm

Can anyone find the Coopers in Cowes who were shipbuilders, or Isabella born in Cowes? The Isabella I found above, was working as a scullery maid in 1891, in London, for the Earl of Londesborough.

I do believe you that this is OUR Isabella. Could you supply documentation or a source for the information about Isabella NEWMAN working as a scullery maid in 1891 for the Earl of Londesborough? She would have been 17 or 18 at the time. Where does she show up next? I have many new facts to put together in some kind of timeline so I can systematically look into everything

Forget the shipbuilding COOPER family of IOW - they never existed, but I would like to know more about the Mrs. COOPER living next door to the MUMFORD family in St. Mary parish of Cowes, IOW. I think someone posted about that already, was it you? Thanks again.

[zoomer]

Okay, I am glad I do not have to do research on a non-existant Newton/Cricket union! I have enough new avenues to explore!

[zoomer]

True OC.. which is why it would be interesting to see an actual picture of it.. though I wasn't aware that they had 'short' certs then? thought that was a relatively 'new' thing?

As I am new here, I was not sure if we could post pictures in the body of a text (rather than avatar photos). I will do so as soon as I have a bit of tech help. It is a fascinating document even though a forgery, most likely.

[Olde Crone Holden]

For Cricket, read Fricker! My kindle doesn't like the word Fricker.

Actually, it wasn't very common for young working class girls to have babies as young as 14 or 15, although of course it did happen occasionally but certainly not as often as it does now. Isabella only had two children that we know of, so she wasn't particularly fertile. I am sure she was not William's biological mother because ythere was absolutely no reason to say he was a nurse child if he was the child of the marriage.

In my experience, nurse child is what we now call a foster child - looked after for money. A wet nurse is someone hired for a few months to feed a baby and usually either lives in, or goes daily to feed the child.

I am also fairly sure ( but I will check) that my grandfather was promoted to officer during Ww1 because most of the commissioned officers had died!

Have you considered that the Earl of Londesborough might be something to do with all this?

OC

[Katarzyna]

For Cooper info see Post no 39

This is Isabella in 1891 census
Isabella Newman
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Relation: Scullery Maid (Maid)
Gender: Female
Where born: Hamburg, Southampton (read Hampshire, Southampton)
Civil Parish: St George Hanover Square
Ecclesiastical parish: St George Hanover Square
Town: London City
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St George Hanover Square
Sub registration district: Mayfair
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 69
Folio: 73
Page Number: 14
Household Members:

Earl Flanders Borough 56.............. (Earl of Landsborough) Londesborough
Countesd Flanders Borough 52...............(Countess of Landsborough) Londesborough
Lady Lilian Denison 23
Lary Mildred Denison 19
Plus lots more household members

I have deleted rest of the numerous household members as they are not significant

[zoomer]

Just for interest - Coopers living next door to Isabella and William Munford
Can't see anything helpful here.

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
2, Albert Street, Cowes, Isle of Wight, Hampshire, England

Fanny Cooper Wife Married Female 42 1859 - Hampshire, England
Nellie J Cooper  Daughter Single Female 20 1881 - Hampshire, England
Ernest F Cooper Son Single Male 17 1884 Cattleman On Farm Hampshire, England
Mabel F Cooper  Daughter - Female 12 1889 Scholar Hampshire, England

1891 census for Coopers mistranscribed under Read on Ancestry but Cooper on FMP

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/6598/HAMRG12_884_886-0346?pid=24655250&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3Duki1891%26indiv%3Dtry%26h%3D24655250&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Albert Street, Northwood, Isle of Wight, Hampshire, England

Fanny Cooper Wife Married Female 30 1861 - Freshwater, Hampshire, England
Nellie Cooper  Daughter - Female 10 1881 - Freshwater, Hampshire, England
Ernest Cooper Son - Male 7 1884 - Freshwater, Hampshire, England
Mable Cooper  Daughter - Female 2 1889 - Freshwater, Hampshire, England

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
10, Union Road, Northwood, Isle of Wight, Hampshire, England

Fanny Cooper Head Married Female 22 1859 Mariners Wife Freshwater, Hampshire, England
Nellie J Cooper  Daughter Single Female 0 1881 - Freshwater, Hampshire, England

Thank you for posting this information. I don't know if it is useful or not but it is important to me. The name COOPER being passed around in my family must come from somewhere. In my grandmother's memoirs she states "the mother's name was COOPER" (though she did not capitalize it as I like to do.) Perhaps the COOPER family next door were biological relatives of William who were realted by marriage to a WATSON family, and they turned to their neighbours, the MUMFORD family, to find someone willing to care for William as they themselves were unable/unwilling to do so. Total conjecture here, but with so few facts I have had to think outside the box for a very long time.

There seems to be no evidence that Isabella ever had a child with her MUMFORD husband. She leaves IOW and English shores in 1907 to sail across the pond. She would surely have wanted to have had children of her own that Mr. MUMFORD could not provide - perhaps he could not "rise to the occasion" or was "shooting blanks", I do not know, but she easily has two natural children with Joseph FRICKER after she arrives in Ontario, Canada. It would have been harder for her to divorce MUMFORD, and remarry in England.

[ozgirl]

I have been reading up on air Cadets in WWI and found this page which is most helpful

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarch...0-%200396.html

Basically any person of any rank could become a cadet and provided they passed the exams would then be commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant. Up to Sep 1919, the RAF used the old army ranks, so Lieutenant then is not the same as Flight Lieutenant now which (I believe ) is an equivalent rank to Captain in the Army. Commissions were not paid for.

Also the notice in the Gazette lists all the Overseas Cadets who were made Temporary 2nd Lieutenants in February 1919, of which there must be over 300, and I doubt that many Overseas Cadets would have been able to buy commissions in the RAF.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...1463/page/9143

[zoomer]

For Cricket, read Fricker! My kindle doesn't like the word Fricker.

Actually, it wasn't very common for young working class girls to have babies as young as 14 or 15, although of course it did happen occasionally but certainly not as often as it does now. Isabella only had two children that we know of, so she wasn't particularly fertile. I am sure she was not William's biological mother because ythere was absolutely no reason to say he was a nurse child if he was the child of the marriage.

In my experience, nurse child is what we now call a foster child - looked after for money. A wet nurse is someone hired for a few months to feed a baby and usually either lives in, or goes daily to feed the child.

I am also fairly sure ( but I will check) that my grandfather was promoted to officer during Ww1 because most of the commissioned officers had died!

Have you considered that the Earl of Londesborough might be something to do with all this?

OC

Yes, I am considering all possibilities including the Earl of Londesborough as the possible benefactor. But why and how?? I will mention that the British genealogist who supplied the RAF info for William which I posted 2 days ago was astounded at the level of secrecy regarding William's brief time as a 2nd Lt. in the RAF in his war history and had never seen anything like it. Information could not be wilfully deleted by a low level clerk, only by orders from high up.

[ozgirl]

Have you considered that the Earl of Londesborough might be something to do with all this?

OC

The Earl of Londesborough died in 1900, and the widowed Countess was living with her son, the new Earl in 1901, so the London house was closed, and presumably with just a few staff. I did have a look at his daughters as they were of a suitable age, but Lady Lilian married in 1895, so any child born in 1898 would probably have been raised by her, and there is nothing to suggest Lady Mildred as the mother of William. I wonder if they had red hair though!

[zoomer]

could you scan it/take a photo of it?? and post the image on this forum please :smilee: [we could then possibly ascertain whether it is real or forgery]

Absolutely I will post it, probably next Monday. My computer skills are not great and I will need a bit of help with this.

[zoomer]

.......and if we can't decide, then an appeal to the register office which issued it would clear up any confusion!

OC

Lovely!!

[Olde Crone Holden]

I was wondering if the Earl had a son!

Thought I was correct about non commissioned officers.

The fact hat some information was redacted on his service record is actually perfectly routine and nothing to do with orders from on high. Anything in a service e record which mentions a third party is redacted under the British very woolly data protection laws. I came across this exact situation when helping someone to get her grandfather's service record. The name of his first wife has been blacked out because it is nothing to do with his second family. Sooooo frustrating!

OC

[zoomer]

For Cooper info see Post no 39

This is Isabella in 1891 census
Isabella Newman
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Relation: Scullery Maid (Maid)
Gender: Female
Where born: Hamburg, Southampton (read Hampshire, Southampton)
Civil Parish: St George Hanover Square
Ecclesiastical parish: St George Hanover Square
Town: London City
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St George Hanover Square
Sub registration district: Mayfair
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 69
Folio: 73
Page Number: 14
Household Members:

Earl Flanders Borough 56.............. (Earl of Landsborough) Londesborough
Countesd Flanders Borough 52...............(Countess of Landsborough) Londesborough
Lady Lilian Denison 23
Lary Mildred Denison 19
Plus lots more household members

I have deleted rest of the numerous household members as they are not significant

Thank you SO MUCH! I wonder why her pob is listed as Southampton when we know she was born in South Stoneham, a poor district. She must have been pinching herself and still thought she was dreaming when she got that job as a lowly scullery maid to the Earl of Londesborough! South Stoneham was called a "sanitation district" meaning that people were still using backyard outhouses and a transition to indoor plumbing being made, one of the best things that Queen Victoria did during her reign was to make sanitation available to the masses.

In 1881 census there are 2 or 3 NEWMANs in the South Stoneham Union (the poorhouse) who may have been relatives.

[zoomer]

I have been reading up on air Cadets in WWI and found this page which is most helpful

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1918/1918%20-%200396.html

Basically any person of any rank could become a cadet and provided they passed the exams would then be commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant. Up to Sep 1919, the RAF used the old army ranks, so Lieutenant then is not the same as Flight Lieutenant now which (I believe ) is an equivalent rank to Captain in the Army. Commissions were not paid for.

Also the notice in the Gazette lists all the Overseas Cadets who were made Temporary 2nd Lieutenants in February 1919, of which there must be over 300, and I doubt that many Overseas Cadets would have been able to buy commissions in the RAF.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...1463/page/9143

Thanks again for destroying another family legend, LOL!

[ozgirl]

Williams Canadian war records are on ancestry, which give full details of his war postings. He joined up on 9 December 1915 and was sent to UK 28/4/17. Disembarked at Liverpool 7/5/17 and sent to Bramshott. Was Acting L/Cpl from 30/7/17 and transferred to Canadian Reserve Battalion in Bramshott on 15/2/1918. Promoted to L/Cpl on 23/7/18 and on 3 August 1918 sent to Cadet District Depot, RAF Hampstead (London) to start Cadet Training. I'm not sure he actually finished the training, as his discharge papers state that he was "on Command to RAF 3-8-18 to 28-12-18". It looks like the commission might have been a courtesy to the returning overseas cadets. William was repatriated to Canada on the 25 Mar 1919 arriving in St John on 4 April. He was demobbed on 7 April 1919 in Toronto.

One point I am curious about was that he named his nok as his mother, Isabell, not his father, who was still alive. William also sent $15 assigned pay to Isabell each month.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Her POB was listed as Southampton be cause whoever filled in the census form neither knew nor cared where a lowly scullery maid was born.

I am not sure where you are getting your social history from, but " sanitation district" was just a way of describing an area for administrative purposes. It,s a very confusing and overlapping system but it doesn't mean it was a poor area necessarily.

OC

[ozgirl]

Thanks again for destroying another family legend, LOL!

:o:o:o sorry!

[Katarzyna]

There seems to be no evidence that Isabella ever had a child with her MUMFORD husband. She leaves IOW and English shores in 1907 to sail across the pond. She would surely have wanted to have had children of her own that Mr. MUMFORD could not provide - perhaps he could not "rise to the occasion" or was "shooting blanks", I do not know, but she easily has two natural children with Joseph FRICKER after she arrives in Ontario, Canada. It would have been harder for her to divorce MUMFORD, and remarry in England.

From Post#49
The only child I can see that was born and died during the right time scale would be this one....

BIRTH:
MUMFORD, IVY DOROTHY mmn NEWMAN
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 201
DEATH
MUMFORD, IVY DOROTHY age 8 months
GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 166

and from post#51
There is one other marriage between Male Munford/Mumford and Female Newman between 1881 and 1901. Altho' there is a Jess Mumford married West Ham, his marriage was to a Rosina Davies but a William Mumford married an Emma Newman at Banbury - they are with a large family and still living Oxfordshire by 1911. (All their children were registered at Banbury.)
That Ivy Dorothy Mumford/Newman birth and death could easily have been our Isabella's.

It is possible that they returned to IOWight in 1898 - William's birth place - after losing the baby. Isabella would be ripe for taking on another child to wet nurse.
Perhaps Isabella was a wet nurse originally to William Watson but would be a child nurse by 1901.

I know, I know! Just speculating

[Darksecretz]

As I am new here, I was not sure if we could post pictures in the body of a text (rather than avatar photos). I will do so as soon as I have a bit of tech help. It is a fascinating document even though a forgery, most likely.

Zoomer,

I can add the picture for you if you would like, we usually use external sites such as Photobucket/Flickr to host our photos and link to them via the forum. If you would like me to do so I can send you a Private Message with my email address so you can fwd it to me.

[zoomer]

Zoomer,

I can add the picture for you if you would like, we usually use external sites such as Photobucket/Flickr to host our photos and link to them via the forum. If you would like me to do so I can send you a Private Message with my email address so you can fwd it to me.

Thx. I could not find the private message, however. I was sent a notice but when I said I wanted to view it the computer did not allow it. I can try another computer. I am looking around and I do not see a private message box.