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  • #41
    Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
    Isabella's birth of 1873 birth fits with her age given on the 1881 census, 1901 census and her Canadian Passenger List of 1907. If you have one for 1883 then I would say that is the incorrect one. What information do you have from the Canadian or USA censuses?
    On the 1911 Canadian census her dob is 1881. Can't find her in 1921 yet. She was in Mount Forest, Ontario by 1917 when William joined up for WWI, and presumably stayed there as she was buried in Mount Forest Cemetery in 1954. Interestingly, the dob on her gravestone is 1873.

    https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/f...0&ref=acom
    Linda


    My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

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    • #42
      Originally posted by ozgirl View Post
      On the 1911 Canadian census her dob is 1881. Can't find her in 1921 yet. She was in Mount Forest, Ontario by 1917 when William joined up for WWI, and presumably stayed there as she was buried in Mount Forest Cemetery in 1954. Interestingly, the dob on her gravestone is 1873.

      https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/f...0&ref=acom
      She went to Mt. Forest as soon as she arrived in Canada 1907, I believe, as this was the destination when she sailed aboard the Tunisian with Joseph FRICKER and William. I have not been able to re-find the confirmation certificate for William, I recall that he was 15 at the time and it was at the Anglican Church in Mt. Forest, about 1913.

      Years ago I found a young Isabella NEWMAN in Southampton in the 1891 census. I will try to find that record again. Perhaps someone else has seen it? I think it was St. Mary parish. The parish in South Stoneham was St. Mary Extra, not the same; both part of the Winchester Diocese. I am not sure if it is the same Isabella, however, nor do I recall the probable year of birth.
      Last edited by zoomer; 20-04-17, 21:14. Reason: misspelling - forgot my glasses!
      Amelia

      My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

      Comment


      • #43
        See post3 on this thread for Isabella's whereabouts in 1891 - she was maid for the Earl of Londesborough.

        OC

        Comment


        • #44
          There were 2 Isabella Newmans born in Jan Q 1873 - one in South Stoneham (which includes Bursledon) daughter of William and Isabella Poole, and one in Southampton, the daughter of Henry and Elizabeth McLaren. The second Isabella is in St Mary's Southampton in 1891 with her widowed father and brothers at her married sisters house.

          https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true


          Link to the 1st Isabella in 1891 in London

          https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true
          Linda


          My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

          Comment


          • #45
            There is a marriage for Isabella Newman in Sep Q 1902 to John Bernard Nash in Southampton. In 1911 John Nash is a widower with 2 young children, still in Southampton. Isabella died in Jun Q 1906, with a stated age of 28. As John had been born in 1882, I think there was again some leeway on her age. As these are the only 2 Isabella Newmans born in Hampshire between 1850 and 1900, it is probably the daughter of Henry and Elizabeth.

            I found a newspaper item about an inquiry into Isabella's death after confinement, due to a weak heart. Death due to natural causes. 5 April 1906.
            Last edited by ozgirl; 20-04-17, 22:34.
            Linda


            My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

            Comment


            • #46
              Ooh, well done Linda. There can't be much doubt that the South Stoneham one is ours, then.

              OC

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by zoomer View Post
                Unfortunately the names of her parents are not on the birth certificate which is most exasperating! I have not found any other record either to match the copy of this birth certificate. For all I know it could have been forged.
                could it have been a baptismal certificate?

                and well done Linda for finding that Newman/Nash info

                What also interests me is that 'someone' obviously knew Isabella's DOB, so why all the confusion/secrecy? [not unless it wasn't 'the done thing' to be 10 years older than your husband!]
                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

                Comment


                • #48
                  Julie

                  I think it is a short birth cert but unless we can see it, we don't know if it has been tampered with although that ought to be evident, remembering that any certificate issued with an alteration on it is initialled and a coorection number added. Doesn't sound like it or Zoomed would have said.

                  Yes, it was altered because she was ten years older than him. I have a similar situation, mine was 13 years older than hubby number 3 and kept up the pretence all her life. Correct age was shown at death and on her gravestone, so someone knew the truth.

                  OC

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    William Fricker/ Watson is Zoomer's direct relative - a nurse child.
                    I don't think we can assume Isabella was his wet nurse which would imply she had had a child previously perhaps stillborn.
                    "A ‘nurse child’ can mean a number of things, from informally adopted or fostered, to temporarily ‘farmed out’ to close kin, or family friends or near neighbours or private individuals who offered a service." (FMP) Usually for a small fee.

                    The only child I can see that was born and died during the right time scale would be this one....

                    MUMFORD, IVY DOROTHY NEWMAN
                    GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 201
                    MUMFORD, IVY DOROTHY 8 m?
                    GRO Reference: 1898 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 166

                    ....but Islington?? They may have lived in London between the censuses of course as Isabella had lived there 1891. It's possible they only returned to Hampshire for the marriage in 1895.

                    Even so this does not help find William's parents.:(
                    Kat

                    My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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                    • #50
                      If Isabella Mumford is Isabella Newton/Cricket - and I am sure she is - then William is almost certainly not her child because he would have been born inside the Mumford marriage, so no reason to call him a nurse child.

                      Not sure how zoomer knows the natural grandfather paid for his commission - does it actually say those words ( natural grandfather) or are you assuming?

                      OC
                      Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 21-04-17, 10:37.

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                      • #51
                        There is one other marriage between Male Munford/Mumford and Female Newman between 1881 and 1901. Altho' there is a Jess Mumford married West Ham, his marriage was to a Rosina Davies but a William Mumford married an Emma Newman at Banbury - they are with a large family and still living Oxfordshire by 1911.

                        I'm beginning to think that perhaps Isabella was a wet nurse to William Watson.
                        Last edited by Katarzyna; 21-04-17, 11:00. Reason: grammar!
                        Kat

                        My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                          If Isabella Mumford is Isabella Newton/Cricket - and I am sure she is - then William is almost certainly not her child because he would have been born inside the Mumford marriage, so no reason to call him a nurse child.

                          Not sure how zoomer knows the natural grandfather paid for his commission - does it actually say those words ( natural grandfather) or are you assuming?

                          OC
                          LOL OC I think you mean Newman/Fricker!!!
                          Kat

                          My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                            Julie

                            I think it is a short birth cert but unless we can see it, we don't know if it has been tampered with although that ought to be evident, remembering that any certificate issued with an alteration on it is initialled and a coorection number added. Doesn't sound like it or Zoomed would have said.

                            Yes, it was altered because she was ten years older than him. I have a similar situation, mine was 13 years older than hubby number 3 and kept up the pretence all her life. Correct age was shown at death and on her gravestone, so someone knew the truth.

                            OC
                            True OC.. which is why it would be interesting to see an actual picture of it.. though I wasn't aware that they had 'short' certs then? thought that was a relatively 'new' thing?
                            Julie
                            They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                            .......I find dead people

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                              See post3 on this thread for Isabella's whereabouts in 1891 - she was maid for the Earl of Londesborough.

                              OC
                              Yes, I recall this post, however, is it certain that it is the same Isabella NEWMAN?
                              Amelia

                              My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Thank you for the clarification. For a long time I thought that the Southampton Isabella was ours because William, according to family tradition with no documented evidence, was said to have been born April 17, 1898 in Southampton. This date would makes sense as the previous post with him as a 2 year old child under the care of Isabella (nurse) and assumed to have been born in 1899. Because the census was done at the end of March, he would have been nearly 3 years old at the time when he was little William WATSON in St. Mary parish of Cowes (I will check if it is East or West Cowes). Many times the census errs with the birth year for this reason.
                                Amelia

                                My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post
                                  could it have been a baptismal certificate?

                                  and well done Linda for finding that Newman/Nash info

                                  What also interests me is that 'someone' obviously knew Isabella's DOB, so why all the confusion/secrecy? [not unless it wasn't 'the done thing' to be 10 years older than your husband!]
                                  The birth certificate says nothing about baptism. But I do not know the standard forms of the period. It mentions the parish. I will post detials soon. The only thing to add really is the name of the person who authorizes it at the bottom.
                                  Amelia

                                  My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                                    Pure speculation! :

                                    Marriages Dec 1895
                                    ________________________________________
                                    Munford William S. Stoneham 2c 125
                                    Newman Isabella S. Stoneham 2c 125

                                    1901 census
                                    Name: Isabella Mumford
                                    Age: 27
                                    Estimated birth year: abt 1874
                                    Relation to Head: Wife
                                    Gender: Female
                                    Spouse: William Mumford
                                    Birth Place: Bursledon, Hampshire, England
                                    Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
                                    Town: Cowes
                                    County/Island: Hampshire
                                    Registration district: Isle of Wight
                                    Sub-registration district: Cowes
                                    Piece: 1017
                                    Folio: 133
                                    Page Number: 30
                                    Household schedule number: 197
                                    Household Members:
                                    Name Age
                                    William Mumford 27 Isle of Wight, Cowes, Hampshire Blacksmith's labourer
                                    Isabella Mumford 27 Bursledon, Hampshire, as on 1881 census
                                    William Watson 2 Nurse Child (Nurse) b Southsea Hants


                                    1911 William Mumford with his brother on 1911 census Cowes says neither mar or single but a Blacksmiths Drumer - no Isabella


                                    Wonder if Isabella left William and ran off with Joseph and baby William? Don't think she ever married Joseph.
                                    I am certain that this is MY William. According to family tradition William's biological grandfather was from a wealthy shipbuilding family. There were Watsons involved in an East India shipping company with offices in London and India. There may be a connection there. Then again this may just be coincidental.
                                    Amelia

                                    My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by zoomer View Post
                                      I have some info about William's RAF records copied from a letter sent by a British genealogist to my mother: He was a temporary 2nd Lt. in the RAF - a low level officer. The wealthy benefactor who paid for his commission, as it was done in those days, was, according to family tradition, his biological grandfather. The name is witheld on the record. The RAF was formed in April 1918 toward the end of the war from a merger of the RFC & the RNAS. Prior to his RAF service, he was Lance Corporal 928232 of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. In August of 1918 he was an RAF cadet and was posted to a training squadron Nov. 1918. He was granted his officer's commission on Feb. 15th, 1919, after the war had ended. Published London Gazette, July 18, 1919. According to family tradition he flew as part of the Channel Patrol. It would make sense that even after the war ended that there would be some surveillance over the channel.
                                      During and prior to WWI no one became an officer for the British forces unless someone with the financial means to do so paid for their officer's commission. This maintained the class system. Even if my family legends are unreliable, the facts of history can be depended upon.
                                      Amelia

                                      My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Well it's for an Isabella Newman b ca. 1872 in Southampton, and she is the only one available as the other one is home with her family in 1891, so I think it quite possible. Isabella'a mother, (Isabella Poole) was born in London, so may have had some ties there, but a number of my Hampshire born family certainly went up to London to work, as there was more work there. I think it would have been seen as a very good job to be working for a peer of the realm.
                                        Linda


                                        My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                          If Isabella Mumford is Isabella Newton/Cricket - and I am sure she is - then William is almost certainly not her child because he would have been born inside the Mumford marriage, so no reason to call him a nurse child.

                                          Not sure how zoomer knows the natural grandfather paid for his commission - does it actually say those words ( natural grandfather) or are you assuming?

                                          OC
                                          True, I do not actually KNOW if it was the natural grandfather who paid for the commission, however, why would anyone other than the biological family have the incentive to do so?

                                          The family legend is that a barrister, son of the grandfather who paid for the commission, had an affair (consensual or non-consensual I do not know) with a gardener's daughter, who happened to have red hair (as did Isabella), and that her name may have been COOPER, and that William FRICKER was the result of this union. We never heard of Isabella having had a previous marriage, or more than one! but it makes sense. The impression passed down (which puts her in a most virtuous light) was that she was a nanny for William working in the home of a "moneyed" family (with no explanation of why they would hire a domestic with the baggage of caring for a child not her own) so, until now, I had assumed that the biological grandfather had first hired Isabella as a wet nurse (at a very young age but it was not uncommon for 15 year olds of the lower classes to have babies then), then once weaned she was William's nanny in this same "moneyed" home, then when she came of age (because I thought she was born in 1883) she married Joseph FRICKER and the grandfather wanted them to go to Ontario, Canada as a "remittance" baby as described in my mother, Sonia Brock's account found in one of the earliest posts in this thread. This version of events is now proven to be false.

                                          The census information which you have provided shines a spotlight on what the actual situation was. Of course Isabella would have said nothing about having left a marriage with no divorce that I know of, or that she had lived "in sin" with Joseph FRICKER as far away from Hampshire as she could get!

                                          Where do you get the Newton/Cricket information? And where does this all fit in, and what makes you certain that it is William's foster mother, Isabella? When did this marriage take place? Or on which census do you find them. I will look myself into these questions, but if you can furnish more information, I would most appreciate it. I feel like I am swimming in new information and, while I am happy to let go of old lies and misconceptions, I need more information about the true story about Isabella. One thing I do know about her is that she fiercely loved William as if he were her own child. When he joined up with the Candaian Expeditionary Force she went after the recruiting officer with an umbrella and yelling at him that he was too young too serve. Seems that she had the reputation that goes with red hair.

                                          I am deeply appreciative of all the help I have recieved thus far through this amazing forum!
                                          Last edited by zoomer; 21-04-17, 16:06.
                                          Amelia

                                          My avatar is my grandfather William as a baby. His origins are shrouded in mystery.....

                                          Comment

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