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Freemans, Levines of ireland? "Desperately Seeking Shulla" and her origins

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  • #41
    Originally posted by lillebetta View Post
    It's mysterious. I would need to know why these people are listed together and when. The dates/ages don't work out.

    This baffled me when i found it, i'll have a nose around to see if we can tie them in!
    Jacky

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Tilly Mint View Post
      This baffled me when i found it, i'll have a nose around to see if we can tie them in!
      Strange, isn't it? The Levine kids are correct, but the rest? I can't wait to what you can find that might explain it. It may just be an error? Then again, maybe not.
      Last edited by lillebetta; 09-03-12, 17:44.

      Comment


      • #43
        Usually, information in Naturalisation file is as follows
        Date and place of birth (town/state, not just country)
        Occupation
        Childrens names and ages
        Names and addresses of people providing references
        Addresses lived at since arrival in UK with dates
        Parents names and nationality.
        The National Archives, Kew – Research Service Offered
        Contact me via PM on Family Tree Forum or via my personal website - www.militaryandfamilyresearch.co.uk

        Comment


        • #44
          Found this but, it's the only Musaphia/Levine connection i can find up until now......

          Father: Musaphia, Bernard "Joseph"
          Mother: Levine, Ada "Israel"

          Here's the link...its just below half way down the page.

          tzorafolk.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, tzorafolk.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!
          Jacky

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by lillebetta View Post
            So excited. Just got a clipping from the Belfast newsletter 1899 that lists the following people together on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, Sept. 27. They were honoring Lord Mayor Otto Jaffe.

            Myer Levine, Samuel Freeman, Louis Berowitz, Meyer Rosenfield, J. Meyers, stewards of the ceremony. Flowers by Miss Eva Freeman. She in turn was presented with a bouquet by Master Joseph Myers on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. J. G. Meyers.

            Mr. Fred Freeman presiding

            And it mentions many more. I'll have to come back later to list them all. There are more Freemans/Freedman. Stay tuned.

            Off to lunch with the elders for Purim.
            More names:

            at the principal table:

            Miss Medelssohn

            Miss Jaffe

            Miss Tulloch

            Sir James Henderson, J. P.

            Sir Samuel Black (town clerk)

            Professor Whitla M.D.

            Professor Byers, M.D.

            Rev. J. E. Myers ( I take this to mean Rabbi)

            Samuel Young, M.P.

            E. W. Pim, J.P.

            R. Patterson, J.P.

            F.W. Moneypenny (the Lord Mayor's Secretary)

            W. (?) J. Small

            A. M. Farrar

            Herman Fox


            "amongst those in the hall":

            Rev. M. Linkram (Rabbi?)

            Rev. S. Myerovitz (Rabbi?)

            Dr. Tomb

            Dr. Wadsworth

            Joseph Freeman

            Samuel Freeman

            Louis Berowitz

            Harris Herson

            Myer Levine

            Phillip Appleton (Appleman?)

            Myer Rosenfield

            Samuel Gorfunkle

            Emanuel Freedman ( Mr. E. Freedman of Glasgow referred to later in the article as)


            J. St.Clair Boyd, M.D.

            Alex Karmel

            J. Pyper, M.A.

            J. G. Myers
            (mentioned later as having left Cork)

            other mentions:

            Mr. Henry Fox (referred to as Vice president of the community)

            Frederick Freman (Chairman) and wife toasted by Lord Mayor Otto Jaffe

            Whew, I think that's everyone. It's the many Freemans that got my attention and the Myers.

            This may all go nowhere but it does attest to presence of them in Belfast and clearly they knew each other. Whether related or not is a question but the community was so small it's likely.

            Comment


            • #46
              Hi - I think you should definitely apply for the full naturalisation file, as Annswabey said it should also show referees and the like and can provide a wealth of information. Not only that, it's a bit of history for you :-) I think that Harry was probably named after Zeev.
              The Sefardies link doesn't make sense e.g Hyman Rosenburg born 1882 being the father of Myer Levine born 1863 and there's a mix of Belfast and the East End. With Shulla, have a look for Levine for the year she passed away. It wouldn't automatically give her first name, might just say wife of...if he was involved with the synagogue you would expect some sort of notice for her passing, even a one liner.

              I looked at the stone. It is Dovid Meir son of Zeev.

              Zev is a variation for the Hebrew for Wolf, which can best be transliterated as Ze'ev.

              Legal/Hebrew: Zeeyv Volf\Volfa\Wolf Gender: M Legal Origin: Hebrew calque < Volf
              ________________________________________
              Yiddish: Zev / Z'ev / Z'eyv / Ziv / / Volf / Vulf / Wolf / Wulf
              ________________________________________
              Yiddish Origin: < Yiddish/German 'wolf'
              ________________________________________
              Yiddish Nickname: Zavl / Zeve / Zevl / Zivko / / Velvil / Velvl / Velvtshik / Veva / Vol / Vole / Volfa / Volfke / Volko
              ________________________________________
              Local Secular: / / Vulfas
              ________________________________________
              US Name: Zev / Warren / William / Wolf / / Harry

              Legal/Hebrew: Dawid Gender: M Legal Origin: Samuel I 16:13
              ________________________________________
              Yiddish: Dovid / Duvid
              ________________________________________
              Yiddish Nickname: Devl / Dodik / Dodil / Dodke / Dodko / Dodl / Dodye / Dodze / Dodzo / Dose / Dovidl / Dovidke / Dudke / Dudl / Dudya? / Tavli / Tevele / Tevil / Tevl / Teyvl
              ________________________________________
              Local Secular: Davidas / Dovydas
              ________________________________________
              US Name: David / Walter

              Legal/Hebrew: Meyir Gender: M Legal Origin: < Hebrew 'illuminates'
              ________________________________________
              Yiddish: Mayer / Mayir / Mayor / Meer / Meyer / Meyir
              ________________________________________
              Yiddish Nickname: Mayorka / Meyerke / Meyerl / Meyirka / Meyirke / Meyril / Meyrl / Meytshe / Meytshik
              ________________________________________
              Local Secular: Meijeris / Mejeras / Mejeris / Meyeras
              ________________________________________
              US Name: Martin / Marvin / Max / Mayer / Meyer / Murray
              Last edited by naomiatt; 09-03-12, 22:21.

              Comment


              • #47
                [QUOTE=naomiatt;2359370]Hi - I think you should definitely apply for the full naturalisation file, as Annswabey said it should also show referees and the like and can provide a wealth of information. Not only that, it's a bit of history for you :-) I think that Harry was probably named after Zeev.
                The Sefardies link doesn't make sense e.g Hyman Rosenburg born 1882 being the father of Myer Levine born 1863 and there's a mix of Belfast and the East End. With Shulla, have a look for Levine for the year she passed away. It wouldn't automatically give her first name, might just say wife of...if he was involved with the synagogue you would expect some sort of notice for her passing, even a one liner.[QUOTE]

                There may be a problem with that. She was buried the second day after she died. There is no stone. Ill grant you that there has been adreadful amount of vandalism but it is troublesome. Her cause of death may have been shameful. One family story says she was a suicide. I need the DC to see what it says.

                Are you thinking there may be a newspaper notice?
                Last edited by lillebetta; 09-03-12, 22:33.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Depending on the circumstance, yes, there might have been a notice. In those times though, the wife's name was often not mentioned, just wife of, or a son born to the wife of etc. For the burial, depends also on what time she passed away, they try the same day but that's not always possible, or it might have been a High Holy day etc. Have you applied for her death certificate? Also a chance that she was in a home or asylum for some reason? Did you ever hear that Myer re-married?

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by naomiatt View Post
                    Depending on the circumstance, yes, there might have been a notice. In those times though, the wife's name was often not mentioned, just wife of, or a son born to the wife of etc. For the burial, depends also on what time she passed away, they try the same day but that's not always possible, or it might have been a High Holy day etc. Have you applied for her death certificate? Also a chance that she was in a home or asylum for some reason? Did you ever hear that Myer re-married?
                    I searched the census records for asylums and hospitals. Saw nothing. The whole lot of them is missing from the Irish census in 1901. They appear to have been rather successful. They could have gone anywhere. They had connections in Germany, but thats all i know. Frustrating.

                    Haven't applied yet but it's feeling more urgent now.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Can you outline the names of the children and what you've found for each starting prior to 1901. Where were they in 1911?
                      Once you've got her DC you'll be a bit wiser..hopefully! And once you've got the Nat file hopefully that will show more relating to the past as well. Unfortunately women weren't deemed that important ;-) Did Myer have siblings? Have you tracked them?

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by lillebetta View Post
                        More names:

                        at the principal table:

                        Miss Medelssohn

                        Miss Jaffe

                        Miss Tulloch

                        Sir James Henderson, J. P.

                        Sir Samuel Black (town clerk)

                        Professor Whitla M.D.

                        Professor Byers, M.D.

                        Rev. J. E. Myers ( I take this to mean Rabbi)

                        Samuel Young, M.P.

                        E. W. Pim, J.P.

                        R. Patterson, J.P.

                        F.W. Moneypenny (the Lord Mayor's Secretary)

                        W. (?) J. Small

                        A. M. Farrar

                        Herman Fox


                        "amongst those in the hall":

                        Rev. M. Linkram (Rabbi?)

                        Rev. S. Myerovitz (Rabbi?)

                        Dr. Tomb

                        Dr. Wadsworth

                        Joseph Freeman

                        Samuel Freeman

                        Louis Berowitz

                        Harris Herson

                        Myer Levine

                        Phillip Appleton (Appleman?)

                        Myer Rosenfield

                        Samuel Gorfunkle

                        Emanuel Freedman ( Mr. E. Freedman of Glasgow referred to later in the article as)


                        J. St.Clair Boyd, M.D.

                        Alex Karmel

                        J. Pyper, M.A.

                        J. G. Myers
                        (mentioned later as having left Cork)

                        other mentions:

                        Mr. Henry Fox (referred to as Vice president of the community)

                        Frederick Freman (Chairman) and wife toasted by Lord Mayor Otto Jaffe

                        Whew, I think that's everyone. It's the many Freemans that got my attention and the Myers.

                        This may all go nowhere but it does attest to presence of them in Belfast and clearly they knew each other. Whether related or not is a question but the community was so small it's likely.



                        WOW!!!!



                        Frederick Freman (Chairman) and wife toasted by Lord Mayor Otto Jaffe... I think I've found Fred !!! I think he was living at 1, Green Street, Green Orpington Kent !!!! Disguised as Fredrick Firman !!!!!


                        So who was Fredrick Firman/Freeman... was he another Brother to Louis/Esther/Isaac & Philip !!!!


                        Hey ... Houston we have lift off !!!!
                        We should never forget them,
                        Because we would not be here today, but for them.
                        We should be proud, reflect, respect and always remember them.
                        Because we all have them…
                        Them… were our Ancestors.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Wallaby View Post
                          WOW!!!!



                          Frederick Freman (Chairman) and wife toasted by Lord Mayor Otto Jaffe... I think I've found Fred !!! I think he was living at 1, Green Street, Green Orpington Kent !!!! Disguised as Fredrick Firman !!!!!


                          So who was Fredrick Firman/Freeman... was he another Brother to Louis/Esther/Isaac & Philip !!!!


                          Hey ... Houston we have lift off !!!!
                          Whoo hoo. ;D

                          Article was from the Belfast newsletter 27 Sept. 1899, not the Gazette


                          J. G. was a typo. Should be J.E. Myers. sorry.
                          Where oh where does the illusive Shulla fit in? I wonder if she was ever a Sarah?

                          I believe there was connection to Kent in my family. It has to with Collegian Rugby 1906, one H. E. B. Wilkins(?) and maybe more.



                          I have this exact postcard addressed to my grandmother, signed H.E.B. It appears to be Harry on the left and perhaps Jacob "Jack" to the the right of the trophy. It was taken at Old Methodist, Belfast. This image kicked off my search. teehee.
                          Last edited by lillebetta; 10-03-12, 02:08.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            [QUOTE=lillebetta;2359372][QUOTE=naomiatt;2359370]Hi - I think you should definitely apply for the full naturalisation file, as Annswabey said it should also show referees and the like and can provide a wealth of information. Not only that, it's a bit of history for you :-) I think that Harry was probably named after Zeev.
                            The Sefardies link doesn't make sense e.g Hyman Rosenburg born 1882 being the father of Myer Levine born 1863 and there's a mix of Belfast and the East End. With Shulla, have a look for Levine for the year she passed away. It wouldn't automatically give her first name, might just say wife of...if he was involved with the synagogue you would expect some sort of notice for her passing, even a one liner.

                            There may be a problem with that. She was buried the second day after she died. There is no stone. Ill grant you that there has been adreadful amount of vandalism but it is troublesome. Her cause of death may have been shameful. One family story says she was a suicide. I need the DC to see what it says.

                            Are you thinking there may be a newspaper notice?

                            If Shulla's death had suspicious circumstances, suicide etc... there was probably an inquest, so she could have been buried a week or even several weeks after her death depending on how busy the coroner was at that time. Intriguing!

                            The DC is important, & if it was suicide you can order the coroners report.


                            Wal'
                            We should never forget them,
                            Because we would not be here today, but for them.
                            We should be proud, reflect, respect and always remember them.
                            Because we all have them…
                            Them… were our Ancestors.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by lillebetta View Post
                              Whoo hoo. ;D

                              Article was from the Belfast newsletter 27 Sept. 1899, not the Gazette


                              J. G. was a typo. Should be J.E. Myers. sorry.
                              Where oh where does the illusive Shulla fit in? I wonder if she was ever a Sarah?

                              I believe there was connection to Kent in my family. It has to with Collegian Rugby 1906, one H. E. B. Wilkins(?) and maybe more.



                              I have this exact postcard addressed to my grandmother, signed H.E.B. It appears to be Harry on the left and perhaps Jacob "Jack" to the the right of the trophy. It was taken at Old Methodist, Belfast. This image kicked off my search. teehee.

                              Would not surprise me if Shulla was known as Sarah/Sheila, all three names sound the same.


                              Wal'


                              PS Betta, I'm pinching the list of names to c+p onto my thread, I have a few certs with some of these names on, so I'll see if any match.
                              Last edited by Wallaby; 10-03-12, 13:14.
                              We should never forget them,
                              Because we would not be here today, but for them.
                              We should be proud, reflect, respect and always remember them.
                              Because we all have them…
                              Them… were our Ancestors.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by lillebetta View Post
                                More names:

                                at the principal table:

                                Miss Medelssohn

                                Miss Jaffe

                                Miss Tulloch

                                Sir James Henderson, J. P.

                                Sir Samuel Black (town clerk)

                                Professor Whitla M.D.

                                Professor Byers, M.D.

                                Rev. J. E. Myers ( I take this to mean Rabbi)

                                Samuel Young, M.P.

                                E. W. Pim, J.P.

                                R. Patterson, J.P.

                                F.W. Moneypenny (the Lord Mayor's Secretary)

                                W. (?) J. Small

                                A. M. Farrar

                                Herman Fox ******** (I might have a link to the Fox family. I have a Michael Fox who signed my grandfather out of Westminster House in 1947 (I think) He claimed to be my grandfather's brother & he had links to Ireland)


                                "amongst those in the hall":

                                Rev. M. Linkram (Rabbi?)

                                Rev. S. Myerovitz (Rabbi?)

                                Dr. Tomb

                                Dr. Wadsworth

                                Joseph Freeman ****** (I have the 1894 Belfast MC for a Joseph Freeman Watch Maker to Leah Cohen. Both age 22, both father's first names are Mosses.)

                                Samuel Freeman

                                Louis Berowitz

                                Harris Herson

                                Myer Levine

                                Phillip Appleton (Appleman?)

                                Myer Rosenfield

                                Samuel Gorfunkle

                                Emanuel Freedman ( Mr. E. Freedman of Glasgow referred to later in the article as)


                                J. St.Clair Boyd, M.D.

                                Alex Karmel

                                J. Pyper, M.A.

                                J. G. Myers
                                (mentioned later as having left Cork)

                                other mentions:

                                Mr. Henry Fox (referred to as Vice president of the community)

                                Frederick Freman (Chairman) and wife toasted by Lord Mayor Otto Jaffe

                                Whew, I think that's everyone. It's the many Freemans that got my attention and the Myers.

                                This may all go nowhere but it does attest to presence of them in Belfast and clearly they knew each other. Whether related or not is a question but the community was so small it's likely.




                                See note next to Joseph Freeman & Herman Fox above...



                                Wal'


                                PS. There is also a very vague link to the Jaffe/Yaffe family via Liverpool, he was a raincoat manufacture with a son named Jacob who died age 7 yrs circa very early 1900s. (1905/6 I think)
                                Last edited by Wallaby; 10-03-12, 14:46.
                                We should never forget them,
                                Because we would not be here today, but for them.
                                We should be proud, reflect, respect and always remember them.
                                Because we all have them…
                                Them… were our Ancestors.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Errr..... On the 1911 census, Frederick Firman, born 1867, Bow, London was living at Hill Top, Green St Green, Orpington with wife Lilian Constance and 3 children.
                                  He also appears as a boarder living in Bow on the 1901. If I've found the right man on the 1891 he's living with parents Charles and Eliza.
                                  The National Archives, Kew – Research Service Offered
                                  Contact me via PM on Family Tree Forum or via my personal website - www.militaryandfamilyresearch.co.uk

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by annswabey View Post
                                    Errr..... On the 1911 census, Frederick Firman, born 1867, Bow, London was living at Hill Top, Green St Green, Orpington with wife Lilian Constance and 3 children.
                                    He also appears as a boarder living in Bow on the 1901. If I've found the right man on the 1891 he's living with parents Charles and Eliza.

                                    Hmmmm.... It's the same address as Albert J Harris, aka Abraham Harris, was living in 1914, could there still be a link, as I could not find Fred on the Irish 1911 census, so maybe he went back to Bow ?
                                    It's strange that Fred was living at the same address a few years before & a few years after Albert Harris was living there.

                                    This is the email from Bromley Library Archivist.
                                    I regret to say that this is a difficult one to crack. The street directories for that area in the early part of the 20th century are not terribly helpful, in that they list selected individuals alphabetically but there is no listing by street. So, I did manage to find Frederick Firman at Hill top, Green-Street-Green in 1909, and again in 1918-19, but confusingly in 1914 he is at Hillbrow, Greet Street Green. I have not been able to find Albert Harris in anything but the 1914 directory that you found. Assuming Hill top is the one and the same house in 1909, 1914 and 1918/19, perhaps Mr. Firman lived there, moved out whilst Mr Harris was there, and then reoccupied the property later.

                                    By examining the large scale maps, I found a Hill top in Woodlands Road in 1963. Earlier maps show this property was not there on the 1909 map but was inserted on the 1909 (revised) map.
                                    Locating 1 Green Street Green is impossible from our street directories. Nor can I find a mention of Broadway. My assumption is that this was possibly on the main road at the bottom of the valley, but this is just an assumption, whereas Hill top is, indeed, up a hill to the east of the main settlement. I'm not convinced that they are the same property, I can find no evidence either way.

                                    As to electoral registers, I regret that we do not hold these for this area for this date. You could try the Centre for Kentish Studies. I am unsure whether you need the Dartford division of Kent, or the Sevenoaks division.
                                    -----------------

                                    I've emailed the centre for Kentish studies to ask for a look-up of there ERs...


                                    Does throw it out with Fred from Bow tho...


                                    Wal'
                                    Last edited by Wallaby; 10-03-12, 14:42.
                                    We should never forget them,
                                    Because we would not be here today, but for them.
                                    We should be proud, reflect, respect and always remember them.
                                    Because we all have them…
                                    Them… were our Ancestors.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by lillebetta View Post
                                      So excited. Just got a clipping from the Belfast newsletter 1899 that lists the following people together on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, Sept. 27. They were honoring Lord Mayor Otto Jaffe.

                                      Myer Levine, **Samuel Freeman** (See toes below) Louis Berowitz, Meyer Rosenfield, J. Meyers, stewards of the ceremony. Flowers by Miss Eva Freeman. She in turn was presented with a bouquet by Master Joseph Myers on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. J. G. Meyers.

                                      Mr. Fred Freeman presiding

                                      And it mentions many more. I'll have to come back later to list them all. There are more Freemans/Freedman. Stay tuned.

                                      Off to lunch with the elders for Purim.



                                      **Samuel Freeman**

                                      I had the following emails, which may relate to the Samuel Freeman if he had a daughter named Florrie



                                      "I have a Florrie Freeman of Belfast who married my Guttenberg (later Graham) Sheffield great uncle in early years of 20th century. They married in the synagogue in Belfast. My marriage record shows that Florrie Freeman was a minor when she married my great uncle Jacob Guttenberg (known as Jack Graham) at Belfast City Synagogue on 7th August 1912. They are given as living at the same address at Strathallan (though handwriting is hard to read), Fort William Park (also hard to read), Belfast - which will be the Freeman address as the elder Guttenberg children were then living in Sheffield (having started out in Hull and Grimsby). Florrie's father is given as Samuel Freeman, who is described as a merchant. The names of the witnesses are also hard to read and I don't recognise their names - they must be Belfast people viz Theodore Mariens (?) and Hermann Boat (?).

                                      Their first child Harold Aaron (Aaron after grandfather Aaron Guttenberg) was born on 3rd May 1913 at home at 109 Psalter Lane, Sheffield (NB this address is now the Psalter public house). This birth appears to be 9 months after the marriage. I am in touch with Harold's eldest son (RG) (b 1945) who lives in Hampstead in London (he has two younger brothers David and Gavin). There were two other children born to Florrie - (Amelia) Eileen in 1914 and Reginald in 1917.

                                      I attach an article on the Guttenberg's I wrote for Shemot in 2022 (ten ears ago) and which won best article of the year for which I have a certificate from the JGSGB. The article is now a bit out of date due to more recent findings.
                                      ------------------


                                      I have been passed your email concerning my grandmother Florrie Graham (nee Freeman) from Belfast.


                                      There was no Dublin connection and the names do not tie in with your family, but I wish you every success with your search.


                                      According to his naturalisation certificate, her father (my great grandfather Samuel Freeman) was born in Vynota, Kovno, Russia (now Vainutas, Lithuania) in 1864. He was the son of Jacob Freeman and Mary Herschovitz, and lived all his adult life in Belfast, Northern Ireland. He was a furniture dealer.
                                      ------------------


                                      It's nice to know who these other Freeman's are so they don't get tangled up with ours...

                                      Wal'
                                      We should never forget them,
                                      Because we would not be here today, but for them.
                                      We should be proud, reflect, respect and always remember them.
                                      Because we all have them…
                                      Them… were our Ancestors.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by annswabey View Post
                                        Errr..... On the 1911 census, Frederick Firman, born 1867, Bow, London was living at Hill Top, Green St Green, Orpington with wife Lilian Constance and 3 children.
                                        He also appears as a boarder living in Bow on the 1901. If I've found the right man on the 1891 he's living with parents Charles and Eliza.

                                        What I mean, is... he is obviously not a brother of Louis as his father is not Tobias, but I still think there could be a link given he lived in the same house before & after Albert Harris lived there... but is he the same Fred as the Belfast Fred ?


                                        Wal'
                                        We should never forget them,
                                        Because we would not be here today, but for them.
                                        We should be proud, reflect, respect and always remember them.
                                        Because we all have them…
                                        Them… were our Ancestors.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Wallaby View Post
                                          **Samuel Freeman**

                                          I had the following emails, which may relate to the Samuel Freeman if he had a daughter named Florrie



                                          "I have a Florrie Freeman of Belfast who married my Guttenberg (later Graham) Sheffield great uncle in early years of 20th century. They married in the synagogue in Belfast. My marriage record shows that Florrie Freeman was a minor when she married my great uncle Jacob Guttenberg (known as Jack Graham) at Belfast City Synagogue on 7th August 1912. They are given as living at the same address at Strathallan (though handwriting is hard to read), Fort William Park (also hard to read), Belfast - which will be the Freeman address as the elder Guttenberg children were then living in Sheffield (having started out in Hull and Grimsby). Florrie's father is given as Samuel Freeman, who is described as a merchant. The names of the witnesses are also hard to read and I don't recognise their names - they must be Belfast people viz Theodore Mariens (?) and Hermann Boat (?).

                                          Their first child Harold Aaron (Aaron after grandfather Aaron Guttenberg) was born on 3rd May 1913 at home at 109 Psalter Lane, Sheffield (NB this address is now the Psalter public house). This birth appears to be 9 months after the marriage. I am in touch with Harold's eldest son (RG) (b 1945) who lives in Hampstead in London (he has two younger brothers David and Gavin). There were two other children born to Florrie - (Amelia) Eileen in 1914 and Reginald in 1917.

                                          I attach an article on the Guttenberg's I wrote for Shemot in 2022 (ten ears ago) and which won best article of the year for which I have a certificate from the JGSGB. The article is now a bit out of date due to more recent findings.
                                          ------------------


                                          I have been passed your email concerning my grandmother Florrie Graham (nee Freeman) from Belfast.


                                          There was no Dublin connection and the names do not tie in with your family, but I wish you every success with your search.


                                          According to his naturalisation certificate, her father (my great grandfather Samuel Freeman) was born in Vynota, Kovno, Russia (now Vainutas, Lithuania) in 1864. He was the son of Jacob Freeman and Mary Herschovitz, and lived all his adult life in Belfast, Northern Ireland. He was a furniture dealer.
                                          ------------------


                                          It's nice to know who these other Freeman's are so they don't get tangled up with ours...

                                          Wal'
                                          My grandmother Freda went by Florrie. Not the same person but related? Hmmm?
                                          There is a cousin Sammy that my mother has referred to, but she doesn't know how he is related.
                                          Last edited by lillebetta; 10-03-12, 16:40.

                                          Comment

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