Charley & Rose

[kylejustin]

yes i remember that being mentioned a few times on clara's thread. is charley likely to have stayed in the ilford area?

[maudarby]

Hi Steven
Phone books on Ancestry only go up to 1984.
An R Smart is listed at 27 Kent Ho La, Beckenham 1974-1983
It gives us a starting point to look for Rose's death.
Moggie

[Darksecretz]

Maybe it was a relative/friend of the family?

I have looked around and found Elizabeth on the census as far back as 1861, it doesn't look like there is any connection to the family, and Elizabeth dies in 1918 @ Melton Mowbray aged 90.

[Darksecretz]

Hi Steven
Phone books on Ancestry only go up to 1984.
An R Smart is listed at 27 Kent Ho La, Beckenham 1974-1983
It gives us a starting point to look for Rose's death.
Moggie

I have had a look but not sure what I am looking for!!

there is a death in 1974 in kent, but, the name is ROSALIE May SMART, but, if she is still at the same address in 1983 then, unlikely to be her.

Do we know when Dolly died? and who registered her death??

[margaretmarch]

So therefore not killed in the war?

We have conflicting stories, one from Steve's Dad that he met Charley and the other from new relative whose mother May Driscoll recounted that her brother Charley died in the War!

Margaret

[maudarby]

Not having any luck finding the death of Rose Smart after 1983 or a couple of years earlier because directories & phone books often listed people after they had moved or died.
Beckenham comes under the Bromley registration district. There was a Rose Smart died Lambeth district 1982 J/F/M but her birthday is wrong 12th July 1897. I hardly think she would have remarried when she was about 86 but who knows with this family!
Do we know when & where Grace/Doll died? We don't have an exact date of birth for her to check with the death index. I did find a Grace Phillips died J/A/S 1980 at Redbridge birth date 16th Nov 1901 which could be her.
Rose Smart could have lived at 27 Kent House Lane prior to 1974 but didn't have a phone.
Where would the Beckenham ERs be keep?
Moggie

[Chrissie Smiff]

I have just been looking for Charles death but I think I mentioned the one below before on the other thread and I was told that it was the wrong side of London. Do we know which side he was living on then, as it looks such a possibility if Steven's contact is right and her dad remembers him. On the other hand, I have just checked for births of Charles H Ward 1895/1897 and there are SO many possibilities. I will still add it here though if only to eliminate for others who are searching.

Sorry if this IS a repeat but the other thread is too long for me to check -
Charles H Ward born c1896 - died Sept 1953 aged 57 - Ealing, Middlesex - ref 53 70

[maudarby]

Hi Chrissie
We do have an exact date of birth for him (Charles Harold Ward born 8th October 1896) but
if as we suspect he died before exact dates of birth were given in the death indexes, I think c1969. It would only prove useful if we could find him in WW1 records & there are so many to trawl through. If Steven's new contact sends him the photo of Charlie in uniform someone may be able to identify the regiment which could narrow down the search considerably.
Moggie

[margaretmarch]

I have just been looking for Charles death but I think I mentioned the one below before on the other thread and I was told that it was the wrong side of London. Do we know which side he was living on then, as it looks such a possibility if Steven's contact is right and her dad remembers him. On the other hand, I have just checked for births of Charles H Ward 1895/1897 and there are SO many possibilities. I will still add it here though if only to eliminate for others who are searching.

Sorry if this IS a repeat but the other thread is too long for me to check -
Charles H Ward born c1896 - died Sept 1953 aged 57 - Ealing, Middlesex - ref 53 70

It looks like the family tended to stay on the east side of London and into Essex although Kent also features and Ealing is west side so it's possible but unlikely.

Margaret

[maudarby]

Re Beckenham ERs
A couple of links might be useful. Bromley Archives.

http://archive.library.bromley.gov.uk/DServe/DServe.exe?dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Index.tcl

My search for electoral registers

http://archive.library.bromley.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb =Catalog&dsqCmd=overview.tcl&dsqSearch=((text)='el ectoral registers')

Moggie

[darannon]

Re the west/east london question, my dad's family moved from bethnal green to southall middlesex (which comes under Ealing). They had been in the east end for centuries, the first uncle moved in 1920 to work on the railways, and the others followed throughout the 20's. My grandad was the last to move, in 1931, and that was also for work. So, although east end to essex is more common, it may be that east to west also happened with charley
Good luck Steven
Denise

[Lindsay]

We think Charles died during the War but as to whether that was WW1 as a soldier or WW2 as maybe a civilian I can't be sure. The gravestone which has fallen over which has Charles' name on it might help. My new contact who is related to May Driscoll (Clara's younger daughter) says that she has a photo of Charley in a uniform which she will send in due course and that might help.

No obvious candidate on the CWGC site though there are a couple which don't give christian names http://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1

Even if he's a civilian there's a good chance he should show up there.

[stevie2006]

Hi folks I have had a few photo's emailed from Ann and will look through them later

I think my dad mixed up two Charley's - the Charley he met I think was Ethel's son - she had a Charles and Victor through her first marriage and they were both close to my grandad (my dad's dad) and he now thinks that was the Charley he met. I still think Charley Ward may have died during the War but no real clues yet.

Here are two relevant photo's - one of Charles although you really can't make out a uniform. The 2nd is a rememberance card from Charles to his mother Clara - unsure who it relates to, the only person I can think of is Ruby in 1939 or Clara's 2nd husband James' death in I think 1932 - any thoughts?







Grace was definitely Dolly and she married David Phillips in Hackney December 1926 volume 1b page 906.

Steven

[margaretmarch]

What a handsome fellow he is! nice to 'put a face to a name' as they say.

Very difficult to say ref the card - the handwriting looks quite young but it may be he didn't have much writing to do so it never progressed beyond the childlike stage.

So we are back to the war theory and certainly he served in the military. I'm no good with uniforms but I'm sure someone on her can say whether that is WW1 or WWII type - to me it looks like WW1 and he looks to be around 20 or so.

Margaret

[Chrissie Smiff]

Hubby says that he is virtually certain it's a world war one uniform.

[Chrissie Smiff]

Now we think it may have been earlier, what about this one in 1921 in case it was a later death but from injuries sustained in the war? The age is slightly out but.........
June 1921 - Charles H Ward aged 23 West Ham ref 4a 31

[Darksecretz]

That looks good Chrissie, we really could do with that Headstone being flipped over...

I'd say its WWI as well, though I guess the best place to ask would be 1914-1918

they might be able to help with it.

[stevie2006]

Hi folks thanks for all the information and help as always I will sift through it all tonight.

Ethel - I have her birth, marriage & death etc. 1st husband Sidney Smith and 2nd Arthur McKanna
Isabel - again I have her birth, marriages, death etc. 1st husband Solomon Smith and 2nd Eric Rolfe
May Driscoll - I have her birth in 1912. Year of marriage and husband George Millbank? Death was in Redbridge in 1974
Grace (Dolly) - I have the year of marriage and husband David Phillips in 1926. I think she dies in Newham in 1980
Hilda - I have year of birth of 1904 and year of marriages. 1st marriage to Maurice Fitzgerald 1923 and 2nd marriage to Henry Hale 1956

I thought I would try and summarise the Ward siblings

Steven

[stevie2006]

Julie thanks for amending my thread to eilminate the Rose Privet marriage and thanks for amending the census on ancestry - much appreciated.

Another small update - remember the photo with my grandad in WW2 uniform with Clara and a second man? Ann sent me a photo with my grandad's sister Marjory and her husband John Deyes and it's the same man as in he photo with Clara and my grandad!!!! That's another person accounted for. I think John Deyes was engaged to Ruby and when she died young in 1939 John and Marjery got close and then married

Steven

[margaretmarch]

That's nice to resolve. That 'blummin' headstone - I could go there now and turn it over for you but as I'm 1000 miles away I think I'll resist the urge!

Margaret