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England family in Padstow Cornwall

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  • #41
    Hello Moggie

    Since we have established the connection between Josiah England and his parents Robert and Martha England, plus their other children, I have now decided to try and find out who the grandchildren were of Joseph and Betsy Tresidder. I know that he had many children, but I will deal with each individual. I guess the secret to that is to find out the marriage of each child (they would marry around the age of 20 +/- 3 years I guess) and then work out the date of each grandchild. Since we are talking about the Padstow area, it is a small place and should help me a great deal. As for the 1861 census of Plymouth that you sent me, I found out with the aid of the reference number that Robert England lived in Green Street.

    I have also found this in Genuki and wondering if it is true:

    Oldest son named after the Father's father
    2nd son named after the Mother's father
    3rd son named after the Father
    4th son named after the Father's oldest brother
    Oldest daughter named after the Mother's mother
    2nd daughter named after the Father's mother
    3rd daughter named after the Mother
    4th daughter named after the Mother's oldest sister


    2nd wife's oldest daughter named after the first wife, using her full name

    Robert
    http://www.mancunianreds.com/
    Names looking for:
    ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
    "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

    Comment


    • #42
      Going by this theory of:

      Oldest son named after the Father's father (Robert who was born 3rd November 1844 but died on the 4th of December 1844)
      2nd son named after the Mother's father (Betsy Tresidders father was named Thomas Tresidder so, a little doubt with that)
      3rd son named after the Father (Do we count the Robert that died?) If so, then the 3rd son is Thomas.
      4th son named after the Father's oldest brother (If we are not counting Robert) then this statement is in fact true.
      Oldest daughter named after the Mother's mother (Betsys mother was Mary Tresidder (née Prynn) The first daughter to be born to them is Mary.
      2nd daughter named after the Father's mother The 2nd daughter of Joseph & Betsy England was called Martha (same Martha who married Robert.)
      3rd daughter named after the Mother (This is not a fact since their 3rd daughter is called Louisa.)
      4th daughter named after the Mother's oldest sister


      2nd wife's oldest daughter named after the first wife, using her full name

      In any case, here are the full details of Joseph and Betsys children:

      Robert b 25th Dec 1859
      Josiah b 22nd Dec 1861 Died 26th of July 1866 ??
      Caroline b 24th of January 1858 Died 10th of January 1859.
      Thomas b 25th March 1856
      Nathaniel b 24th April 1864
      John b 28th March 1854
      Louisa b 17th July 1850
      Martha b 16th June 1848
      John b 2nd Jan 1846
      Robert b 3rd Nov 1844 Died 4th December 1844
      Mary Jane b 22nd Feb 1843.

      All that is left to do is to do some census checking for these names except for those who are deceased at the time of the census. I will do some other research with regards to marriages. Plus, I will try to find out if they decided to move elsewhere to stay with an Uncle or Aunt in Plymouth.

      Robert
      http://www.mancunianreds.com/
      Names looking for:
      ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
      "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

      Comment


      • #43
        Hi Moggie

        I have a small problem in that I have put down a William J England (born 1872) as one of the children of Joseph England. For this to have happened, he would have had to been extremely old for a start. Now, after looking at the 1881 census for Padstow, I have William J England staying with his grandparents Joseph and Betsy England. He was 9 years of age and for the life of me, I cannot see where his mother or father was at that time. I guess I will have to delete William as far as being Josiahs child is concerned. I have looked at a distant cousins tree, and it says that he is the child of Martha who might have been married twice for some reason but kept her maiden name. I say this because he was born an England. He then went on to marry a Bessie Jane Bray who might have been born in 1871.

        Regards

        Robert
        http://www.mancunianreds.com/
        Names looking for:
        ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
        "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

        Comment


        • #44
          Robert

          William J England was the son of William Henry England and Martha Thomas, who married in 1876 in Cardiff, where Martha was born. Martha Thomas is not Martha England

          I think you need to do your own research rather than try to fit what a distant relative has already done. The usual way to do it is to go back one generation at a time and get certificates to back up what you think is fact.

          You say you do not have access to any census. Thmay help you a bit although it isn't complete Sorry, I can't get it to cut and paste, but the site is

          Use FreeCEN to access 19th Century UK Censuses online and for free. You can use FreeCEN transcriptions to discover your ancestors' occupation, family history and household information.


          OC

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
            Robert

            William J England was the son of William Henry England and Martha Thomas, who married in 1876 in Cardiff, where Martha was born. Martha Thomas is not Martha England

            I think you need to do your own research rather than try to fit what a distant relative has already done. The usual way to do it is to go back one generation at a time and get certificates to back up what you think is fact.

            You say you do not have access to any census. Thmay help you a bit although it isn't complete Sorry, I can't get it to cut and paste, but the site is

            www.freecen.org.uk

            OC
            Hello OC,

            I have done my own research for some time now, but then I had some personal issues that needed addressing. I have come back to my Tree which contains 177 names from both sides of the family. William J England was born in 1872 therefore he was born out of wedlock, I am right in saying that, am I not?

            Robert
            http://www.mancunianreds.com/
            Names looking for:
            ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
            "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

            Comment


            • #46
              Ah, right, sorry, I thought you KNEW Martha England had been married twice. It doesn't look as if she was married at all.

              Martha England died aged 28 in 1877 in St Columb, so she may have been the mother of WJ England - but unless you get his birth cert you won't know!

              OC

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                Robert

                William J England was the son of William Henry England and Martha Thomas, who married in 1876 in Cardiff, where Martha was born. Martha Thomas is not Martha England

                I think you need to do your own research rather than try to fit what a distant relative has already done. The usual way to do it is to go back one generation at a time and get certificates to back up what you think is fact.

                You say you do not have access to any census. Thmay help you a bit although it isn't complete Sorry, I can't get it to cut and paste, but the site is

                www.freecen.org.uk

                OC
                Hello OC

                This is the first time I have ever used the above link and it confirms what I read on the Genuki Cornwall site. I know that William J England is the grandson of Josiah England and Betsy England (née Tresidder) and all I wanted to find out was the link as I knew I got something wrong in my tree, a long time before I knew my distant cousin was doing one so, there was no plagiarism involved... Nevertheless, it bugged me to find that in the list of births on the LDS site, there was not one mention of a William Henry England being born to Mr Joseph England and Betsy England. This is where I found my stumbling block. With that in mind, I can now put the pieces back together and will do a quick research for William Henry or just William for births in Cornwall between 1840 and 1870 just to be on the safe side. If indeed William is another child of Josiah and Betsy, then another branch of Englands can be found in Padstow. Many thanks for the link OC.

                Robert
                http://www.mancunianreds.com/
                Names looking for:
                ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
                "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                  Ah, right, sorry, I thought you KNEW Martha England had been married twice. It doesn't look as if she was married at all.

                  Martha England died aged 28 in 1877 in St Columb, so she may have been the mother of WJ England - but unless you get his birth cert you won't know!

                  OC
                  No problems OC. All I can safely say is that I have done some research for the marriage of a "Martha England." I have found only one for Martha England and that she was married in 1865. She is probably not the one. Nevertheless, I have a Martha England who was a Domestic servant on both the 1861/1871 census, but as you quite rightly pointed out, she died in 1877. She probably had the child out of wedlock and lived with her parents.

                  Robert
                  http://www.mancunianreds.com/
                  Names looking for:
                  ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
                  "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    No, William Henry England appears to be the son of Humphrey England and Mary Jane Pollard, although I cannot find him in 1861 - Mary Jane has two more children by then and strill no sign of her husband Humphrey. (Admittedly, he is a sailor!)

                    OC

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                      No, William Henry England appears to be the son of Humphrey England and Mary Jane Pollard, although I cannot find him in 1861 - Mary Jane has two more children by then and strill no sign of her husband Humphrey. (Admittedly, he is a sailor!)

                      OC
                      That has rather stopped me in my tracks for tracing my great-aunts and great-uncles, but I can still ask my 3rd cousins about their ancestors, which is not a problem at all. I will receive my marriage certificate for Robert England and Cordelia Wordens marriage in 1879. This should confirm them as my great-grandparents and should confirm that Joseph and Betsy England were my great-great-grandparents. Once that is confirmed, I will order a marriage certificate for Joseph England and Betsy England (née Tresidder) who were married in 1841. This should confirm the parents of both Joseph and Betsy.

                      Robert
                      http://www.mancunianreds.com/
                      Names looking for:
                      ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
                      "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Confirmed that William Henry England is the son of Humphrey England and Mary Jane Pollard because in 1881 William Henry england has his Pollard grandmother living with him

                        Louisa England, born c1851, dau of Joseph and Betsey, is married to Henry Thomas in 1871 and living next door to her parents in Middle Street.

                        OC

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                          Confirmed that William Henry England is the son of Humphrey England and Mary Jane Pollard because in 1881 William Henry england has his Pollard grandmother living with him

                          Louisa England, born c1851, dau of Joseph and Betsey, is married to Henry Thomas in 1871 and living next door to her parents in Middle Street.

                          OC
                          For Louisa England, I can confirm that they do live next door to Joseph and Betsy England in 1871 Another interesting thing is that on the same street living next door to the Thomas's are the Brays and Tresedders (could this be a mispelling of Tresidder?) One of the Brays (Bessie Bray) married a William J England, the very same William J that I have been trying to work out.
                          http://www.mancunianreds.com/
                          Names looking for:
                          ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
                          "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            So, who is Cordelia Ann Gifford England, who marries in 1904 in Chard and marries yet again in 1927?

                            I thought we had established that William J was the son of Martha who died? But only his birth cert will confirm that.

                            EDIT - OK, Cordelia in Chard is a red herring, sent to distract us! Nothing to do with this search. Yet.

                            Grace Worden England married either Soper or Ward in 1904. She should be on the 1911 in one of those married names
                            OC
                            Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 10-09-11, 23:59.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Cordelias, wife of Robert, died June 1934 aged 73. When did her husband die? Is he the Robert who died aged 85 in Bodmin in 1945

                              Mary Jane, born c1843 married twice, 1. to Benjamin shuttleworth in 1862 2. to Joseph Parker Bronyn/Brunyer/Brunyee in 1872 - this family is transcribed as BRONYN in 1881 and they are living in Padstow.

                              (Sorry about my dreadful typing but there is something wrong with my mouse and it will not let me correct anything)

                              OC

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                So, who is Cordelia Ann Gifford England, who marries in 1904 in Chard and marries yet again in 1927?

                                I thought we had established that William J was the son of Martha who died? But only his birth cert will confirm that.

                                EDIT - OK, Cordelia in Chard is a red herring, sent to distract us! Nothing to do with this search. Yet.

                                Grace Worden England married either Soper or Ward in 1904. She should be on the 1911 in one of those married names
                                OC
                                Good morning OC!! I have done some research and have come up with this:

                                We already know that Robert England (born 1859) married Cordelia Ann England (Worden) so that can be established as fact.
                                They had many children of which Cordelia Ann England was born in 1887. As you say, she could have married in Chard, Somerset in 1904 when she was 17 years old. Another theory is that she could be the one who married in 1917 in Totnes, Devon. The only fact that can back this up is the fact that my father remembered his Aunt Delia who lived in Devon. This would confirm this story. In the 1980s, he would say "that she would be about 100 years old by now." It sounds like he remembered her well and I just need to find now where she died and when.

                                Robert
                                http://www.mancunianreds.com/
                                Names looking for:
                                ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
                                "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                  Cordelias, wife of Robert, died June 1934 aged 73. When did her husband die? Is he the Robert who died aged 85 in Bodmin in 1945

                                  Mary Jane, born c1843 married twice, 1. to Benjamin shuttleworth in 1862 2. to Joseph Parker Bronyn/Brunyer/Brunyee in 1872 - this family is transcribed as BRONYN in 1881 and they are living in Padstow.

                                  (Sorry about my dreadful typing but there is something wrong with my mouse and it will not let me correct anything)

                                  OC
                                  I am sorry that I didn't reply to this message earlier as I didn't see it. I can confirm that both Cordelia, wife of Robert died in 1934 aged 73. Robert England is also correct too. Again, I can confirm that Mary Jane was married twice; once to B Shuttleworth and second Joseph Brunyee.

                                  Robert
                                  http://www.mancunianreds.com/
                                  Names looking for:
                                  ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
                                  "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Hi Robert
                                    The 1917 marriage at Totnes was to a Frank H Carne. I think this surname should be Came.
                                    A Cordelia Ann Came (born 2nd Apr 1887) died in 1988 at Kingsbridge Devon.
                                    Two sons from this marriage 1924 Totnes & 1929 Kingsbridge.
                                    Moggie

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by maudarby View Post
                                      Hi Robert
                                      The 1917 marriage at Totnes was to a Frank H Carne. I think this surname should be Came.
                                      A Cordelia Ann Came (born 2nd Apr 1887) died in 1988 at Kingsbridge Devon.
                                      Two sons from this marriage 1924 Totnes & 1929 Kingsbridge.
                                      Moggie
                                      Brilliant!!! The name of the place that was given by my father was in fact Kingsbridge. So, I can guess that he was either close to his aunt Delia or she outlived the others. It is just a shame that he has no memory for those who lived around the same area, as there were quite a few Englands born in the 20s, 30s, and 40s.

                                      Robert
                                      http://www.mancunianreds.com/
                                      Names looking for:
                                      ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
                                      "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                        So, who is Cordelia Ann Gifford England, who marries in 1904 in Chard and marries yet again in 1927?

                                        I thought we had established that William J was the son of Martha who died? But only his birth cert will confirm that.

                                        EDIT - OK, Cordelia in Chard is a red herring, sent to distract us! Nothing to do with this search. Yet.

                                        Grace Worden England married either Soper or Ward in 1904. She should be on the 1911 in one of those married names
                                        OC
                                        Here is an e-mail I received from a distant cousin who shares the same forename and family name as myself:

                                        "Bluey" was my great grand father. (Bluey was the nickname for William J England)(He was born in 1872)
                                        William Jack England my grandad. (Whether his name was "Jack" or it is a nickname, I do not know.)
                                        J**n England my father. (He has his father as being born J**n England, who I would guess was born either in the 30s or the 40s.
                                        I was born in 1962."

                                        I have replaced the middle letters with asterisks to hide the name of the living person.

                                        Regards

                                        Robert
                                        http://www.mancunianreds.com/
                                        Names looking for:
                                        ENGLAND (Cornwall especially Padstow or St Columb Mjr and Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon) TRESIDDER (Cornwall) PRYNN (Cornwall) WORDEN (Cornwall)
                                        "Nothing great is easy" Captain Matthew Webb

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          So, does your cousin not have his great grandfather's birth cert? We know William J was born in 1872, but we don't know for definite who his parents were.

                                          OC

                                          Comment

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