England family in Padstow Cornwall

[mancunianred]

Have you made contact with the OPC (online parish clerk) for the area in Cornwall? - http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/n_p/padstow.php

Hello Joy!!

Many thanks for your reply. I have not made contact with the OPC as yet. The only problem I have at the moment is that the Mr Joseph(or Josiah) England who was born in 1812/1814 or 1817, was born in Plymouth, Devon and he married a Betsy Tresidder in 1841. I have another Joseph England who was born around the same time and married a Betsy too so, I would need to try and contact the Plymouth one. All I heard about Joseph England, is that his father was named Robert. This seems to be a common name, along with Thomas and William because my direct line goes like this:

Robert England (my great-great-great-grandfather)
|
Joseph England (my great-great-grandfather)
|
Robert England (my great-grandfather) was named after his older brother died soon after his birth.
|
William John Collins England (my grandfather) his brother, also a Robert England died in the 1st world war.
|
Thomas James England (my father)
|
Robert John England (myself) I also have a cousin who lives in the same country as myself and he was born in Padstow, just like the other Englands.

Kindest Regards

Robert

[maudarby]

Hi Robert
Great news, I've found him. I emailed Hugh Wallis re his index to baptisms & burials at Stoke Damerel & I have just found a reply from him. Josiah Bennett England bap 20th April 1817. Parents Robert & Martha, abode Dock occupation Mason.There are 3 other baptisms, 1810, 1812 & 1814 for sons of Robert & Martha + children of 4 other couples. I will forward the results to you if I can work out how to do it.
Marriage for Robert England & Martha Bennett 26th Sep 1809 Stoke Damerel.
Batch Number: M052425 brings up 3 other marriages at S.D &
Batch Number: M052422 brings up 3 earlier marriages at S.D.
I think sorting out this lot is going to keep you occupied for quite a while.
Moggie

[mancunianred]

Hi Robert
Great news, I've found him. I emailed Hugh Wallis re his index to baptisms & burials at Stoke Damerel & I have just found a reply from him. Josiah Bennett England bap 20th April 1817. Parents Robert & Martha, abode Dock occupation Mason.There are 3 other baptisms, 1810, 1812 & 1814 for sons of Robert & Martha + children of 4 other couples. I will forward the results to you if I can work out how to do it.
Marriage for Robert England & Martha Bennett 26th Sep 1809 Stoke Damerel.
Batch Number: M052425 brings up 3 other marriages at S.D &
Batch Number: M052422 brings up 3 earlier marriages at S.D.
I think sorting out this lot is going to keep you occupied for quite a while.
Moggie

Hi Moggie!! Many thanks for your help on this one, and sorting it out is just the tonic I need. I will reply to this thread in greater detail when I come back from work. Once again, many thanks.

Kindest Regards Robert

[mancunianred]

Hi Robert
Great news, I've found him. I emailed Hugh Wallis re his index to baptisms & burials at Stoke Damerel & I have just found a reply from him. Josiah Bennett England bap 20th April 1817. Parents Robert & Martha, abode Dock occupation Mason.There are 3 other baptisms, 1810, 1812 & 1814 for sons of Robert & Martha + children of 4 other couples. I will forward the results to you if I can work out how to do it.
Marriage for Robert England & Martha Bennett 26th Sep 1809 Stoke Damerel.
Batch Number: M052425 brings up 3 other marriages at S.D &
Batch Number: M052422 brings up 3 earlier marriages at S.D.
I think sorting out this lot is going to keep you occupied for quite a while.
Moggie

Hello Moggie!!

Many thanks for getting in contact with Hugh Wallis for me. I am still trying to get my head around the information that you sent me by e-mail yesterday. It seems that there is a great deal of information that might prove if Robert England is indeed the father of Joseph England. We can assume then that Joseph England is my Great-Great-Grandfather and Robert England is my Great-Great-Great-Grandfather. Though it looks as though he had his mothers maiden name for a middle name. I have tried to search those names i.e Robert England and Martha Bennett marriage but I have had no luck. I still have a few leads in that, Robert England my Great-Grandfather(Josephs and Betsy Tresidders son) who was born in 1859 and married a Cordelia A England (née Worden), had many children. One of them is is my grandfather (William John Collins England died 1941) and he also had another son called Samuel Collins England. I was wondering if the second forename could indicate something?

I look forward to hearing your response. Just one more thing about Robert England and Martha Bennett, how sure are you of this, roughly 95%, because when you said "great news", it sounded positive.

Have a nice evening.

Kindest Regards


Robert England

[maudarby]

Hi Robert
I do feel 95% certain that we have found the right Josiah. If you send for Josiah's marriage certificate & find his father Robert was a (stone) mason then I think that would be conclusive.
I think the names of Josiah/Joseph & Betsy's children also give clues to a previous generation.
I have tried to search those names i.e Robert England and Martha Bennett marriage but I have had no luck.
Did you mean that you couldn't find their marriage? It's on Familysearch.
The Collins surname could have come into the family from Cordelia's side of the family. Have you traced her family back a few generations?
Moggie

[mancunianred]

Hi Robert
I do feel 95% certain that we have found the right Josiah. If you send for Josiah's marriage certificate & find his father Robert was a (stone) mason then I think that would be conclusive.
I think the names of Josiah/Joseph & Betsy's children also give clues to a previous generation.
I have tried to search those names i.e Robert England and Martha Bennett marriage but I have had no luck.
Did you mean that you couldn't find their marriage? It's on Familysearch.
The Collins surname could have come into the family from Cordelia's side of the family. Have you traced her family back a few generations?
Moggie

I have ordered my great-grandfathers (Robert England 1859) marriage certificate with Cordelia Worden. So, I am waiting on that, and I will order Josephs marriage certificate next. As for Robert England/Martha Bennett, I have had the same luck as you. Nevertheless, I believe that they were born in Stoke Damerel, and the list of names that you sent me last evening convince me that they are more or less relatives of Mr Robert England and they are perhaps Josephs aunts and uncles. The clues, as you say are the names of the children in a previous generation. So, using this logic:


Baptism Date: 30 Sep 1810
Surname: England
Forename(s): John
Relationship: Son
Father: Robert
Mother: Martha


Baptism Date: 7 Jun 1812
Surname: England
Forename(s): Nathaniel Barnett (Could the name Barnett be "Bennett?"
Relationship: Son
Father: Robert
Mother: Martha


Baptism Date: 30 Oct 1814
Surname: England
Forename(s): Robert William Bennett
Relationship: Son
Father: Robert
Mother: Martha
Abode:  Dock
Occupation: Mason


Baptism Date: 20 Apr 1817
Surname: England
Forename(s): Josiah Bennett
Relationship: Son
Father: Robert
Mother: Martha
Abode:  Dock
Occupation: Mason

The names in Bold seem to be the forenames of Josephs (Josiahs) children i.e Robert and Nathaniel for a start. Could it be possible that Josiahs brothers did the same?
As for Cordelias side of the family, I have not started that one yet. Her family name is Worden, though perhaps her mother or possibly grandmother was called Collins.

Regards

Robert England

[maudarby]

I think Joseph & Betsy also had a daughter Martha.

Moggie

[mancunianred]

I think Joseph & Betsy also had a daughter Martha.

Moggie

Yes, I can confirm that too in my family tree. Although it seems strange that Josiah and Betsy had their first child in 1843 and their last child in 1861. The names of Josiahs/Betsys children are:

Robert England
Mary England
Louisa England
John England
Thomas England
Nathaniel England
William England
Josiah England
Martha England

Regards

Robert

[mancunianred]

For information, it states that the England family lived in or near the Docks. I have found a link but I don't know if it is the same "Dock", even though it states "full transcription for Stoke Damerel." There is only one England and that is Edward England in 1791. He was a hairdresser so, I guess the family only moved there.

Here is the link:

http://devonportonline.co.uk/historic_devonport/transcriptions/1791_directory.aspx

Regards

Robert

[maudarby]

Do you have access to the census? I think I may have found Josiah's father Robert in 1851.
A Robert born c 1790 Devonport, lodger, no occupation. A Sarah Martin is the head with a married daughter Jane England who was the wife of Robert England born c 1814.(? son of Robert/Martha). Sarah Martin is listed on the 1861 census as mother-in-law of Robert, mariner.
There is a death of a Martha in 1846 at Plymouth & a death of a Robert in 1863 Plymouth but I can't find either of them in 1841 or Robert in 1861.
Perhaps someone else may be able to find them.

Moggie

[mancunianred]

Do you have access to the census? I think I may have found Josiah's father Robert in 1851.
A Robert born c 1790 Devonport, lodger, no occupation. A Sarah Martin is the head with a married daughter Jane England who was the wife of Robert England born c 1814.(? son of Robert/Martha). Sarah Martin is listed on the 1861 census as mother-in-law of Robert, mariner.
There is a death of a Martha in 1846 at Plymouth & a death of a Robert in 1863 Plymouth but I can't find either of them in 1841 or Robert in 1861.
Perhaps someone else may be able to find them.

Moggie

Thanks for the post. I will do some research and get back to you on that.

Regards

Robert

[mancunianred]

Do you have access to the census? I think I may have found Josiah's father Robert in 1851.
A Robert born c 1790 Devonport, lodger, no occupation. A Sarah Martin is the head with a married daughter Jane England who was the wife of Robert England born c 1814.(? son of Robert/Martha). Sarah Martin is listed on the 1861 census as mother-in-law of Robert, mariner.
There is a death of a Martha in 1846 at Plymouth & a death of a Robert in 1863 Plymouth but I can't find either of them in 1841 or Robert in 1861.
Perhaps someone else may be able to find them.

Moggie

Unfortunately, I do not have access to any census whatsoever at the moment except for Genuki Cornwall which has been of great help indeed. I checked again with the LDS website and all I got for birth/baptism was a Robert England who was christened in 1790 in Stoke Damerel Devon. The date is the 18th of July 1790. From what I can gather, this is the only Robert England from the Stoke Damerel region of Devon who was born in 1790.

They have Robert Englands parents listed as a Mr William England and Mrs Elizabeth England. For other information, Robert England married Martha Bennett in Stoke Damerel on the 26th Sep 1809 and I guess Martha must have been pregnant at the time as their first-born was born in 1810. Unforrtunately, there is no information on the LDS for the birth/christening for Miss Martha Bennett. She must have been born in either Somerset or in Cornwall. Looking at the census further in the Padstow area, I have only found one of Robert/Marthas children and that is Joseph England. If I can look through all the areas of Cornwall(a bit long-winded I know) and put some pieces together, then it will look much clearer. If Joseph is the only one to have gone to Padstow, or indeed Cornwall, then my next port of call will have to be Devon for my Gggg uncles and aunts.

Many thanks Moggie.

Robert

[maudarby]

Hi Robert
I have found Robert in 1861 transcribed as Ingland born c1790 Stoke Damerel no occupation.
Living with John & Agnes Wright & described as uncle. John Wright was born in Essex & Agnes in Plymouth so presumably he was her uncle. I believe that she was Agnes Bennett & she married John Wright in Manchester Cathedral !!! 5th Nov 1854.
Moggie

[mancunianred]

Hi Robert
I have found Robert in 1861 transcribed as Ingland born c1790 Stoke Damerel no occupation.
Living with John & Agnes Wright & described as uncle. John Wright was born in Essex & Agnes in Plymouth so presumably he was her uncle. I believe that she was Agnes Bennett & she married John Wright in Manchester Cathedral !!! 5th Nov 1854.
Moggie

I have done a double-check with the name "Ingland", and it has only thrown up the name "England." This seems to be him and his name was written as it sounded I guess. I am guessing he was retired as he would have been 71 at that time going by his occupation. So, now that we are certain about Joseph and his parents. I need to go into further detail about his brothers who stayed in Plymouth. I will also try and find out who else was born between the years 1785 and 1805 in Stoke Damerel to a William and Elizabeth England, if they are indeed Josephs grandparents.

Robert

[mancunianred]

Do you have access to the census? I think I may have found Josiah's father Robert in 1851.
A Robert born c 1790 Devonport, lodger, no occupation. A Sarah Martin is the head with a married daughter Jane England who was the wife of Robert England born c 1814.(? son of Robert/Martha). Sarah Martin is listed on the 1861 census as mother-in-law of Robert, mariner.
There is a death of a Martha in 1846 at Plymouth & a death of a Robert in 1863 Plymouth but I can't find either of them in 1841 or Robert in 1861.
Perhaps someone else may be able to find them.

Moggie

I did some research about Devonport and when Robert England and his wife Martha had their children, they gave their address as "Dock", in the information that you provided me in the e-mails. When you mentioned "Devonport", that really threw me because I didn't really know anything about that area. One question, why is he listed as being born in Devonport when he was born in what is known as "Stoke"? If he listed "Devonport", as his birthplace, then it is probably because of a petition that was agreed to by the late King George IV in 1823, and thus it was renamed Devonport. Therefore I am sure that each child of Robert England either gave Devonport or Plymouth as their birthplace.

Robert

[maudarby]

Nathaniel ended up in Lancashire & I think Robert stayed in Devon but it's hard to pinpoint the right John (1810) because there were 2 other Johns born in 1814 in Devonport/Stoke Damerel
Moggie

[mancunianred]

Nathaniel ended up in Lancashire & I think Robert stayed in Devon but it's hard to pinpoint the right John (1810) because there were 2 other Johns born in 1814 in Devonport/Stoke Damerel
Moggie

I take it that you confirmed this via the Lancashire census with regards to Nathaniel? One of these days, I will have to get access to a census. Yes, I agree with you in that Robert staying in Devon, Nathaniel going to Lancashire, and Joseph in Cornwall. So, that just leaves John and I am sure that he can be tracked down.

Robert

[maudarby]

I take it that you confirmed this via the Lancashire census with regards to Nathaniel? One of these days, I will have to get access to a census. Yes, I agree with you in that Robert staying in Devon, Nathaniel going to Lancashire, and Joseph in Cornwall. So, that just leaves John and I am sure that he can be tracked down.

Robert

Yes I found Nathaniel in Lancashire in the census he was a mason like his father.
John could have died young. The burial records supplied by Hugh Wallis for S.D only go up to 1828.
Moggie

[mancunianred]

Yes I found Nathaniel in Lancashire in the census he was a mason like his father.
John could have died young. The burial records supplied by Hugh Wallis for S.D only go up to 1828.
Moggie

So, I will have to go to either LDS or BMD to see about a John England. I will do that right now and report the findings.

Robert

[mancunianred]

Hi Moggie

I have sent you some information to your e-mail about further avenues of exploration.

Robert