Need help to translate a will from 1810

[Tralena]

I just got a reply from TNA, it said...........

There was insufficient information provided we are unable to process this estimate.

But I ordered it from the page on their website. It had all the numbers shown . I'll give it another go.

[Mary from Italy]

They sometimes do that, I don't know why.

Put in the notes section that you want the documents about Shillam v. Shillam - maybe that'll help.

[Oakum Picker]

Ann had been in control of the purse strings for a long time after Samuel's death. If she had married Joseph she would have relinquished that control. The baptismal entry may or may not have been a deliberate attempt to mislead. His 3 christian names William Joseph Ellison may have been given & possibly the priest already knew the father was Joseph ELLISON so made the entry so.

His first marriage shows his name as William Joseph Ellison SHILLAM. When asked his father's name he may have just answered Joseph, so the SHILLAM was added automatically. I have seen this happen on numerous occassions. As I have seen an illegitimate child being given his father's whole name as christian names.

Ann may have been seen as a 'fallen woman' by grandfather William & that is why he objected. Also this illegitimate child would benefit whilst if Samuel's son had survived he appears to have been excluded from the will. If he hadn't this may have been another resentment.

[Tralena]

Sorry for not getting back sooner... my Dad had been taken into hospital and between running back and forth from there and caring for my Mum, I've not had much time for anything else.

Oakum Picker. I think you could be right with the way the names were presented on the documents. In that way the parties could feel they haven't lied.

As no one has come up with a marriage record for Ann and Joseph Ellison I can only assume they never married. As for Grandfather William Shillam and his Objections. It could not be because of an illegitimate child as William Joseph Ellison (shillam) was born c1824 and the court case was in 1812.

I got another reply from the TNA saying the same thing.... not enough info, I even did what Mary from Italy suggested. I've since written to them with every piece of info shown on the page,. so fingers crossed its 3rd time lucky.

I also got news back from the Goldsmiths.... I'll copy and paste what they had to say....

[Tralena]

A reply from the Goldsmiths. I've left the senders name off but she's come across as very helpful.

The repky:
Thank you for your email of 31 January enquiring about William Joseph Ellison Shillam.
I have consulted the Goldsmiths’ Company’s apprenticeship and freedom index and no one by the name of Shillam is listed in there. I also looked to see if he might have entered a maker’s mark at the Goldsmiths’ Company’s Assay Office but he did not.
It is possible that he was apprenticed to someone who was not a member of one of the City livery companies in which case it might be more difficult to track down apprenticeship details. I am sure that some people learnt their trade informally – without the necessity of a formal binding agreement such as an apprenticeship indenture.
His name might appear in the trade press or local papers of the day but if he did not enter a maker’s mark it might suggest that he worked for someone – not as an independent business. Further areas of research, apart from local rate books etc., may be forthcoming if you consult the Local Studies Departments in the central library nearest to his various addresses.
If in any further research you find any connection with the Goldsmiths’ Company please do get back in touch.
**************************************

I wonder if he worked for George. I'll write back and ask if she would be kind enough to search for George Schultz to see if he had a 'mark' also it might be worth looking under the name William Joseph Ellison as he may have had to use his Baptism paper to 'prove' who he was.....

[Darksecretz]

Thats a good idea Tralena, did they check also under the name of William Joseph Ellison? it might be that he didnt use the Shillam bit..

[Tralena]

Julie.... I've written back and asked them to look under George Schultz and William Joseph Ellison, but some how I dont hold my breath on William being found under the name Ellison.... but time will tell. I'll update you all as soon as I hear anything.

[Darksecretz]

thanks Tralena, I will look forward to this.. fingers x'd!!!

[Tralena]

I would have a look and see if there were other siblings born to this couple.. mainly elizabeth/martha

Still can not confirm any siblings but another family member found this for me (it was on the IGI.....

William Hayward Marriages: Sarah Shillam
Marriage: 08 JUL 1769 Of, Tetbury, Gloucester, England

Possible children:

FRANCIS HAYWARD - Male Christening: 21 APR 1779 Tetbury, Gloucester, England
FRAN HAYWARD - Male Christening: 28 SEP 1782 Tetbury, Gloucester, England
WILLIAM HAYWARD - Male Christening: 04 JUN 1792 Tetbury, Gloucester, England
JOB TERRIL HAYWARD - Male Christening: 15 NOV 1798 Tetbury, Gloucester, England

I did try having a quick look to link Job Terril to Ann, but I wasn't successful and still not able to find anything about Martha, Elizabeth (from the 1841 census sharing a home with Ann and Son WJE Shillam. Nor Eliza Hayward the witness to Ann and Samuels marriage.

[Tralena]

My reply from Goldsmiths.....

Dear Tralena
Thank you for your email reply of 9 February enquiring about George Schultz and William Joseph Ellison.
I did look in the Goldsmiths’ Company’s apprenticeship and freedom index and no one by those names are listed in there. I also looked to see if either or both of them might have entered a maker’s mark at the Goldsmiths’ Company’s Assay Office but they did not.
With best wishes,

I'm feeling a bit disappointed with that....

I'm still waiting for a reply from TNA re: the court case. Hopefully I'll get better luck there.

Thank you everyone for your help.

[Uncle John]

Goldsmiths Company only (?mostly) hold information on people registered in London. There are/were several other assay offices. One of OH's ancestors had his mark registered at Newcastle on Tyne, a short-lived and not very well run assay office that broke away from York. The Goldsmith's Company archivist pointed me to a privately published book (originally a PhD thesis) and I was able to get a copy on loan from Newcastle University library.

[Darksecretz]

oh piffle!!! what a downer.. hopefully Tralena that the TNA come up with the goods

[Tralena]

Thank you for that Uncle John..... my WJES was a Londoner so I would think he would register (if anywhere) in London, but you have given me another lead and I'llsee if I can get a loan of the book you mentioned. Do you remember the actual name of the book and are you saying there could be more than one book of this type (ie, you mentioned York and New Castle)..

Darksecretz.... I second your piffle and make it a double piffle, I really thought Goldsmiths was going to come back with some thing. I just didn't want this ancestor to dry up on me so soon, I so wanted to learn more about his and his fathers life's. oh well, I suppose I have plenty of others to 'pick on'.

Still not hear from TNA... will keep you all posted.

[Uncle John]

Goldsmiths Company had a copy of the book and sent me an image of the relevant page. But I already knew he worked in Newcastle. I don't know about contact details for other assay offices. It seems highly unlikely that he was registered.

[Tralena]

I have the same feeling Uncle John.

Thank you all for your help

[Darksecretz]

Thank you for that Uncle John..... my WJES was a Londoner so I would think he would register (if anywhere) in London, but you have given me another lead and I'llsee if I can get a loan of the book you mentioned. Do you remember the actual name of the book and are you saying there could be more than one book of this type (ie, you mentioned York and New Castle)..

Darksecretz.... I second your piffle and make it a double piffle, I really thought Goldsmiths was going to come back with some thing. I just didn't want this ancestor to dry up on me so soon, I so wanted to learn more about his and his fathers life's. oh well, I suppose I have plenty of others to 'pick on'.

Still not hear from TNA... will keep you all posted.

I cant remember who its was on WDYTYA that had goldsmiths in their tree.. but it was interesting, maybe if you ask them what kind of procedure the apprenticeship went though or what they did it might help to 'put flesh on the bones' to your WJES' life?

aha! it was Patsy Kensit

http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/episode/patsy-kensit

[Tralena]

At long last.......

I've just received a call from TNA and they will be sending the court case (Ann and the Grandfather) Shillam V Shillam court case via post on the 18th April.... they said its a big file, hence it being on CD. I cant wait to see what it has to say.... hope there's lots and lots of info.

Will keep you posted. :-D

Tralena

[Janediano]

Did you find out anything else about this family? I would love to know. Thank you.

[clematised]

Send this person a message by clicking on their username and send a personal message to alert them of your interest in this family, if their e mail address is still active they will receive the message.

Welcome to the Family Tree Forum.

Edna

[Tralena]

Hi Janediano

Everything came to a stop after my Dad died, he couldn't wake up from his operation. I was devastated. I tried continuing on this quest but my heart and mind wasn't in it. I know I need to get back on track, I'm just a bit lost on where to pick up from. Also, my Ancestry membership has run out and I'm not able to renew it at the moment.