Question re German/Jewish naming tradition

[greyingrey]

Olde Crone....bearing in mind what you've said about Asher/Lyon/Hart etc being well established names & the way Jewish naming traditions work(ed), do you think (time for very broad generalisations) that it was coincidence that my gggg grandfather surfaced in Nottingham.....I mean because Leics & Notts had & still have the largest number of Ashers ?......because the name would change from generation to generation, wouldn't it ?.....so there's less of a likelihood of people apparently having the same "surname" being related than with non Jewish families (am I right ?)...So how come people with the surname of Asher kept arriving there ? Did they adopt it ? The Caroline Asher born in Portsea I mentioned later married under the name of Caroline Assur....apparently, if the internet is to be believed, Assur could either by an old English or a Jewish name (but she married at the Beavis Marks synagogue, so that's pretty clear) I have been in touch with someone with Ashers in Portsea....but she's traced them back to Tudor times (just like the William Asher in Ruddington, Notts in the seventeenth century)

[greyingrey]

Yes, Old Crone...I thought for a long time that William & Lyon were the same person....but I'm not convinced that he'd have named his first son George Thomas Barfield (Thomas Barfield would have been his father in law) & only his second son Samuel Lyon....the father's name on Samuel's baptism is William. He was up in Nottingham & there wasn't a synagogue there....both of William's sons were baptised in CofE churches....as were Lyon's first 2 children....can't find baptisms for the others (well, an adult baptism for one of the others)....maybe he didn't feel the need to fit in so much as he became more established & confident. I note what you say about the children of a Jewish father & non Jewish mother not being punished for their "status/lack of status" but would they have been able to undergo any kind of Jewish naming ceremony ?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Again, what we have found is that Jews from Russian countries etc, do not have a concept of a fixed surname in their own country - their surname changes according to the occasion. This is not to conceal anything (well, not usually, lol) but to sort of explain alliegances and alliances to whoever is asking.

For example - COHEN is a "tribal" surname and really denotes that you are descended from Abraham, no more than that.* I would think it very likely that immigrating Jews adopted the Asher name as a surname - it probably has tribal connotations too.

All you can surmise from a Jewish surname is that name held some significance for them, but it might not have been their father's surname! It is very very confusing, although once they become second generation English, they usually stick to the accepted idea of a British surname, in other words, your father's surname!

(I do hope I am not swamping you with information you don't want/need - it's just that there is so much of it to be considered when doing Jewish research)

OC

*A recent DNA study into men who have Cohen as a surname turned up the rather surprising result that most Cohen men have a very unusual Y- DNA profile which doesn't occur in any other name group. So their assertion that they are all descendants of Abraham may not be so far fetched after all - they are certaiinly all the descendants of one man!

[greyingrey]

No, thanks, Olde Crone...it's fascinating....wondering if the person who was Lyon Asher found himself in Notts/Leics & adopted the name of Asher because it was a popular Jewish/general name there....& Wiliam was the most popular first name...

[Olde Crone Holden]

There is a certain alliteration in the English names adopted, so William for Lyon wouldn't be too far off the mark...we have a Moishe who was Maurice, Schmeliel who was Samuel, Isaac who was Jack and so on.

It's a pity there are no synagogue records (are you sure? Where there was no synagogue, there was often a travelling Rabbi, who would have recorded events elsewhere) as these might give you his sacred Jewish name and also the first name of his father.

Incidentally - he didn't "find himself" in Nottingham, he went there because there were already other Jews known to him. "Our" man went to a specific town for the purpose of an arranged marriage.

OC

[naomiatt]

wow Naomi thanks for that not seen it before I'll try and find that Headstone Photo too thanks

Val - your pm message is full - can you send me your email address again..I replied and lost it..
I think the first line says Avraham son of Chaim..
I've asked a pal to re-confirm about the 2nd line..
where were your R's..I'm in touch with people who have Rose and Rosenberg..

[naomiatt]

Thanks for everything, Naomi....I'm going to follow up the links you've given me (hopefully tomorrow). I guess, say, for example, if your uncle & grandfather had the same name & your grandfather was dead but your uncle wasn't, that you could give your child the same name, saying that it was OK because the grandfather was dead, or would it not be possible if anyone in your immediate family were still alive ?

My problem is sorting out what may be "Jewish related problems " from normal genealogical issues. I don't actually have any proof that my family was Jewish....there just seems to be strong circumstantial evidence. But I don't know if my gggg grandfather gave up the faith as soon as he came to England or whether that happened with his childrens' generation....& naming could be followed for the sake of tradition rather than religious tradition, if you see what I mean It looks as if the woman he lived with (no proof of a marriage...although she had been married...it's unclear if this person & my gggg grandfather were the same person) wasn't Jewish...she had been born in Northants & I haven't found anything in her family tree to suggest she was.Would it have made any difference within the Jewish community if you were living with a non Jewish partner & having children with them rather than marrying them ?

Hopefully tomorrow, I'll get my Stuff together & I'll be able to present my "Jewish questions" with specific reference to my family in a more orderly manner. But can I ask for now if any of the geographical connections I've got ring any bells ?

As a BROAD GENERALISATION, it strikes me that immigrants with Jewish roots the E Midlands (I'm thinking particularly of Leicestershire & Notts) tended to leave the faith more quickly than those who settled in the south of England. That may simply have been because I've been looking at families who arrived no later than 1820 & there weren't synagogues there as early as in London/Portsea/Kent, so it was easier to leave/harder to stick to the religion.

I've got what looks like some kind of geographical triangle (well, a triangle plus London, but I've taken London out of the equation because virtually every group found a footing in London)......the Jewish communities of Portsea/Kent/possibly Bedford. My direct ancestors settled in Nottingham, but the close associates I've come across in Nottingham have ties with Portsea & it looks as though they had ties with the family in Kent mentioned above. One of the main signatories for a synagogue in Nottingham had the surname of Lyon (my gggg grandfather was Lyon Asher) & was from a well established & influential Jewish family in Bedford...the oldest son of the Lyon family in Kent ended up in Bedford & the family in Kent had a Caroline Asher, born in Portsea, living with them (a rabbi in Portsea was also a Lyon). It looks as though my gggg grandfather's first child may have been named Samuel (there's some question about his paternity). Just playing around with some ideas, I had a look on another site to see if anyone was researching the Samuels surname....there's only one....he was a German/Jewish immigrant who, she believes, arrived in England around 1820 (the first sighting of my gggg grandfather) & the trail she has followed has led her to Portsea & the Kent coast. So I was wondering if anyone else had found the Portsea/Kent link when researching their Jewish families.

Anyway, I'll try to put down what I've got in a more orderly fashion (that'll be the day) in the next couple of days.

Thank you for all your help.....this is fascinating

Hi - well, with the names, it can get complicated, as an example - Joseph and Rose the grandparents died - they had two sons, Aaron who had children first and Noah - Aaron would probably name his first born son after Joseph or if a girl, after Rose, then the subsequent after Rose's parents (if deceased)...then perhaps they could be named after deceased great grandparents...Noah also had some children...sometimes he would also have named a child after Joseph or Rose..
In my family for example, many boys of a generation were named Morris after their gf...so the rules are traditionally there, at least for the known name..the Hebrew name is the key.

If for example, Joseph Cohen took up with Susan Smith who wasn't Jewish - few options - he may himself have stayed with the faith, and therefore wouldn't marry Susan - or he felt so strongly, that he'd expect Susan to convert - or he loved her so much that his only way out was to live with her and be disowned from his family. If a marriage took place, he could be totally disowned and treated as dead by his family if they were religious. By the same token, there was a lot of conversion going on..
or, it was easier not to appear as Jewish, particularly in a business sense. At one point, Jewish people were only allowed to perform certain occupations..so that's why you see so many Jewish people in the rag trade for example. If originally a doctor, the chances of a person being able to continue that occupation were very slim, so many became barbers. The positive for the Jewish people were their trading and business skills, and often this kept them afloat as well as some notable families who basically had good business clout and were merchants, dealers in silver, gold etc etc He would have great difficulty living with a divorcee. It works in reverse as well, if the partner was Catholic for example. Another thing you'll find is what's called 'stille nacht' - silent weddings. There wasn't a civil marriage, but married by a Rev under the auspices of the Jewish faith.
Even today, if a Jewish couple want to divorce, not only do they do that in the civil sense, but also have to get a Jewish divorce called a 'get'. If that's not obtained, they cannot re-marry again in a synagogue, and by Jewish law, they are still married.

Any ideas of the surname of the wife in Northants? -or is that the Elizabeth, surname unknown?

Yes, you have a point with locations..being in the East End of London for example, there was some type of synagogue on every corner, sometimes three or four in a street, often based in a house..so I suppose it was also a numbers game.

I know OC has mentioned Wallaby's post...also have a look at the Levien Thompson topic..covers some similar locations to yours..I have no doubt that the Asher(s), Samuels (that can also show as Samuel), Lyon(s) etc are Jewish.
There are lots of people researching these surnames..you may find in that sense, that it's best to post to a Jewish forum such as BJ..but yes, if you can do what names you have on here..then we can all give a hand a bit more..

It is interesting isn't it..and complicated..like a cryptic crossword! Also, they were all at it, so to speak! Well, not all, but their would have been mistresses for example, illegitimate children, assumed marriages etc etc

[naomiatt]

Greyingrey - When you get a chance..have a look at this slide show about names -
http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/G...es/slide7.html and

http://jewishwebindex.com/names.htm

If you put the surname Asher in here for example, it shows you where the name is found

http://www.avotaynu.com/csi/csi-result.html

This is for given names http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/w...ch~model1~GNDB

[greyingrey]

Thanks yet again, naomi......my 2 threads are getting intertwined. I think, for the sake of clarity, the best thing I can do here is to do a post here now about my definite ancestors....the family of Lyon Asher in Nottingham & then a separate post about the family in Kent who seem connected (confusing to post them together because of name similarities)


So........

William Asher married Elizabeth Barfield at St Martin's Leicester on 19 Sep 1814. No family clues in the names of the witnesses (Benjamin Bans & Mary Boll....s....indicipherable.....B Bans said to be a woollen trade operative...so maybe Wiliam or Elizabeth were). Both W & E resident in the parish....Elizabeth born in Northants. Only one I can find is an Elizabeth Barfield baptised Titchmarsh, Norhants 9 April 1792. No indication so far that she was Jewish...have looked at 2 of her brothers & they were both married etc in CofE churches....one was married in Clerkenwell, so there would have been a synagogue in London available to him.

They seem to have moved pretty quickly to Nottingham

4 Sep 1815 baptism of George Thomas Barfield at St Mary's, Nottingham ...(Thomas Barfield was Elizabeth's father..there was a William Asher baptised 1788 at Leicester St Margaret's with a father named George, but he married an Elizabeth Hall at Leicester All Saints in 1816. He retired in Leicester as a Chelsea pensioner. Elizabeth had a brother named George, but I doubt her family would have been allocated all the names & I imagine she'd have put her father's name first)
22 Jan baptism of Samuel Lyon at St Mary's Nottingham. Elizabeth had a brother named Samuel. As for Lyon....no Samuels or Lyons in the William Asher of Leicester's family. William's occupation listed as a hawker for both births.


After this, William disappears from the record books. There were quite a few William Ashers around & I've followed up the ones I could find. A lot of people have been misled by a William & Elizabeth Asher at Arnold, Nottingham....there are also a William & Clementine Asher there at the same time. In fact, they're just one couple....the woman was Clementine Elizabeth Brown of Derby....sometimes she called herself Clementine & sometimes Elizabeth....a different couple altogether. There is the death of a soldier named William Asher in a military hospital in London in 1817....intriguingly, he was the same age as the William Asher of Leicester.

12 July 1820 baptism of Alfred Bradley, son of Lyon & Elizabeth Asher at St Peter's, Nottingham (just to avoid confusion, St Mary's & St Peter's are Nottingham city centre churches & William & Lyon were living in the part of town where, if you crossed the road, you moved between the parishes...so there's no real significance in whether a baptism took place in one or the other)
13 Nov 1822 baptism of Joseph, son of Lyon & Elizabeth Asher. Lyon's occupation for both baptisms given as a licensed hawker (quite a social step up from William's simple "hawker", but it would have been a natural progression.

No other baptisms, but further children listed on 1841 census with approx dates of birth.....Rosa (1826), Abraham (1827), Jacob (1831) Reuben (1834....he had an adult baptism)

Who was Lyon's "wife" ? (can't find a marriage unless we assume he was William). Because Lyon's first child (assuming he wasn't William), was named Alfred Bradley, everyone has been scuttling around looking for an Elizabeth Bradley. On the census records, it says that Lyon's "Betsy" was born in Titchmarsh, Northants. Can't find an Elizabeth Bradley there, but one of a suitable age was baptised just down the road in Thrapston....but she seems to have married a Marshall Meadows there on 8 April 1812 & to have stayed there all her life (but the descendants of Alfred Bradley I'm in touch with say they won't believe it until they've seen the PR with their own eyes)
Reuben.....Lyon's youngest child....named his only daughter Betsy Barfield Asher, so this would seem to indicate that Lyon's Betsy was the Elizabeth Barfield who had married William Asher in Leicester. It could be the case that he was with an Elizabeth Bradley to start with....something happened....& he got together with Elizabeth Barfield...so the children might have had different mothers.

OK....onto the Kent lot

[greyingrey]

Oh yes.....Lyon said to have been born 1786/8 in Germany

[greyingrey]

Right......so this is the family that seem to be connected.

On the 1841 census they're living in Gillingham, Kent

Leh Lyon (born c 1796 abroad), a watchmaker, & his wife Elizabeth (born c 1801....presumably also abroad)

Children....Simeon 1824 Asher 1825 Samuel 1827 Rosetta/Rosa 1836 (a big gap between the last 2)

At the same address there's a Caroline Asher (born Portsea....her birth year varies between 1811 & 1821 depending on the census) & her son Henry (born Aldgate 1834)

Simeon & Asher later say they were born in Nottingham...other towns given for the children's births (they keep changing their stories) are Canterbury/Chatham/Gillingham/London.

George Asher (William/Lyon's son up in Nottingham) married a Caroline Simpson in Nottingham in 1831. She was illegitimate. She would have been born /conceived in Nottingham (she was baptised in Nottingham & her mother had been too) around the time Simeon & Asher thought they had been born in Nottingham. She's described as a watchmaker. (a bit unusual for a woman)...which was Leh Lyon's occupation.....just my naughty mind ???

Leh , Elizabeth & their daughter Rosa/Rosetta emigrated to the US sometime between the 1841 English census & the 1850 New York census. They spent the rest of their lives in Albany, New York. On the US census records, Leh is described as having been born in Germany, Elizabeth in England.

Right...off to follow up those links

[greyingrey]

They did seem to exceed in the production of male children.....12 children between them & only 2 girls....& both named Rosa

[greyingrey]

Just noticed there's about a 10 year gap between Caroline Simpson's wedding & the possibility of her being born/conceived in Nottingham when Simeon/Asher were born there. This also holds true for George....his baptism date seems very late for this marriage. I don't know if it's just a coincidence & both were late baptisms

[Olde Crone Holden]

Religiously observant Jews are more likely to produce male children than female children..this is to do with the laws of female "cleanliness" which forbids intercourse in the first 14 days of the monthly cycle. Babies conceivd later in the cycle are more likely to be male.

It does not always work, of course, otherwise no religious Jew would ever have a daughter!

OC

[greyingrey]

Thanks OC.....looks as though Lyon was observing the Jewish faith in at least one respect, then....

[greyingrey]

Talk about cryptic clues....found an Elizabeth Bradley, born in Portsea in 1800....wondered if she might have been the mother of Lyon's son, Alfred Bradley (although her father was Matthew) But she married a "James Fimpson" in Portsea in 1820....but they can't be found thereafter. Wonder if James Fimpson was really James Simpson & was related to the Caroline Simpson Lyon's son/stepson George married in Nottingham. She was illegitimate, but her mother eventually (many years later) married a man from Portsea. This is all too much for my brain

[Olde Crone Holden]

This is absolute standard stuff for Jewish research, lol!

Yes, Fimpson much more likely to be Simpson or Timpson even.

OC

[greyingrey]

Well, you must all have better brains than I have (doesn't take much). I reckon it was Sim(p)son. The Portsea Jewish site has a page on the community's history & the Simsons are specifically mentioned (as are the Lyons) &, as I said, Lyon Asher's family had a connection to a Simpson family with Portsea connections. So maybe Alfred Bradley was named in honour of Elizabeth Bradley of Portsea's family ? Maybe they helped Lyon in some way.

[naomiatt]

Hi - "Leh , Elizabeth & their daughter Rosa/Rosetta emigrated to the US sometime between the 1841 English census & the 1850 New York census. They spent the rest of their lives in Albany, New York. On the US census records, Leh is described as having been born in Germany, Elizabeth in England" - Leh would more than likely have been Lev, Leib etc...Does his name change once he's in the US....and do you have any idea if they had Jewish burials or if Rosa/Rosetta married a Jewish man?
and what happened to Simeon, Asher and Samuel?

There are a number of Lyon/s on here
http://www.cemeteryscribes.com/searc...&search=Search including Portsmouth, Cambridge, Chatham, Rochester etc etc

There is this Asher Lyons* for example - age fits...
Deaths Dec 1897 Lyons Asher 72 Medway 2a 339 and a marriage -
Marriages Dec 1848
ISAACS Sarah Medway 5 547
Lyon Asher Medway 5 547

[naomiatt]

Forgot about this site..a touch later..but a name might ring out...http://www.archive.org/stream/commer.../n205/mode/2up includes Portsea and other locations throughout the UK