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  • #21
    Originally posted by Chrissie Smiff View Post
    The only marriage I can find of a Norah M to a Harold Smith in anything like the right area/year is this one -

    April - June 1930 - Arthur Smith to Norah M Leek - Holborn Ref 1b 1194

    A possible birth for Norah M Leek though would be March 1906 - Woodbridge (Suffolk) 4a 1116.
    Chrissie, did you mean Harold not Arthur?
    Margaret

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    • #22
      Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
      Chrissie, did you mean Harold not Arthur?
      Margaret
      Oops - yes I meant Harold, sorry. I kept getting my Harolds' mixed up with my Arthurs' :o:o I have altered it so not to confuse.
      Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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      • #23
        Chrissie,
        This marriage looks likely as there are other "Leeks" mentioned in the will. I'm very tempted to order both the marriage and birth certifiactes you suggest. The previous generation came from London / Middlesex so Holborn is quite possible. Thank you

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        • #24
          Hi Robert,
          I've sent you an email ref Norah May Leek and I think you need to get the marriage cert as that will give Harold's father's name and get you back into the Smith line. I wouldn't bother getting Norah's birth cert as that won't help you connect Harold to your Smith tree.
          Margaret
          Last edited by margaretmarch; 14-11-10, 18:24.

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          • #25
            Ohhhhh tell me Margaret please, what have you found out about Norah May Leek? I do hope I have found the right marriage for you Robert. You can understand from my board name why I have a certain sympathy with people researching the name Smith :D
            Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Chrissie Smiff View Post
              Ohhhhh tell me Margaret please, what have you found out about Norah May Leek? I do hope I have found the right marriage for you Robert. You can understand from my board name why I have a certain sympathy with people researching the name Smith :D
              I have found her in 1911 with her brother but they are with aunt and uncle. I think you are spot on with her and the marriage as the will for Harold lists loads of beneficiaries named Leek and Smith as well as Collett. I have found one 3 of the beneficiaries still alive and Robert has now written to one.
              Fingers crossed he gets some answers.
              Margaret

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              • #27
                Oh wow Margaret, thank you for telling me I do hope he gets a reply.
                Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                • #28
                  Me too - I can't wait!
                  Margaret

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                  • #29
                    Harold Smith

                    A quick update. I now have the marriage certificate which fits in with all we know so far. It confirms Harold's father as Arthur Smith. At the time of the marriage Harold was living in Cheshire. I have his birth place as Whitstable, Kent although his father (if it is the same Arthur) hails from London Middlesex.
                    I still await replies from those I have written to mentioned in the will.
                    We really need a birth certificate to finally prove the link to my tree and I'm hoping a reply will help with this and hopefully help with further research into this part of my Smith family tree.

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                    • #30
                      I have had no replies to any of those mentioned in the Will and seem to have come up against a wall. Any further suggestions welcome

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                      • #31
                        Hi Robert
                        I have also looked at all the Harold Smith births (without a second initial) in the two likely quarters i.e. Oct-Dec 1906 and Jan-March 1907 and I wonder if he could have been born in Marylebone? Unfortunately, in 1911, the only one coming up with a free search in Marylebone born 1906 +/-1 and an Arthur in the same household is in an institution.

                        Did it say on Harold's marriage cert whether his father was still alive or deceased?
                        Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                        • #32
                          Hi Chrissie,

                          According to Harold's marriage certificate his father was alive at the time of the marriage.

                          The family does have a connection with North London. My father worked in Marylebone and he, his brother and father (Arthur's brother) lived in Wharncliffe Gardens (now demolished) in Marylebone. Given Harold's later achievements it may seem to be incongruous to have been in an institution but I believe this not to have been uncommon at the time. What sort of institution are we talking about?

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                          • #33
                            As I understand it from your tree which you sent me some time ago and may of course now have been amended, you have the parents for Harold as Arthur E Smith b1871 and Catherine Susan Clifford 1865 -1901 - Arthur is your great uncle. They are here on the 1901 RG13; Piece: 800; Folio: 15; Page: 22.

                            If the Harold you are tracking is related to you he would be named the same as a son born in 1897. Did you ever find a death for the first Harold? It's not unusual for children to be named the same as one who had died.
                            Margaret

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                            • #34
                              Sorry RObert, I can't say what type of institution as I was just doing a free search. I haven't got any credits on 1911.
                              Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Robert of LadywellVillage View Post
                                A quick update. I now have the marriage certificate which fits in with all we know so far. It confirms Harold's father as Arthur Smith. At the time of the marriage Harold was living in Cheshire. I have his birth place as Whitstable, Kent although his father (if it is the same Arthur) hails from London Middlesex.
                                I still await replies from those I have written to mentioned in the will.
                                We really need a birth certificate to finally prove the link to my tree and I'm hoping a reply will help with this and hopefully help with further research into this part of my Smith family tree.
                                When you say you have his birth place as Whitstable are you referring to the Harold E Smith shown on your tree as born 1897? I didn't think we had found a birth for the Harold you are tracking.
                                Margaret

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                                • #36
                                  Can you tell us what occupation is given for Harold's father Arthur on the marriage certificate? It may help with looking at the 1911 for them as a family.
                                  Margaret

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                                  • #37
                                    The occupation for Harold's father Arthur is shown as a house porter on Harold's marriage certificate. It is interesting that the occupation for Norah's father is shown as "Captain merchant Service" which is what my cousin (Geoffrey Smith who did meet him) surmised Arthur's occupation to have been. Apparently Artghur brought back a number of artifacts from his travels.
                                    I do still have Arthur E Smith b1871 as married to Catherine Susan Clifford in my tree and believe Arthur to be my great uncle but I undertsand that I need a birth certificate to be sure and confirmation in the 1911 census would also be useful.
                                    I have the birth place for the Harold I am tracing as born in Whitstable and the Harold born in 1897 in Canterbury. I must confess to needing to do some work on recording my sources having been given to understand erroneuosly that FTM was recording my sources as I discovered them - a job for a rare period of free time!

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                                    • #38
                                      Arthur and Catherine on 1911 with Frank C b1893 Whitstable, Harold A b1897 Canterbury, George C b1900 Cheriton and Leslie T b1904 Whitstable. Living at Oakley, Cromwell Road, Whitstable. Arthur is a carpenter.
                                      So the Harold A on your tree born in Canterbury as you already had.
                                      Margaret

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                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Chrissie Smiff View Post
                                        Do you have his birth reference Robert? I ask because his death on 12th January 1986 aged 79 in Shepway Kent ref 16 1861 suggests that he was born on 28th October 1906. However, the three Harold Smith births in the Sept and Dec quarters of 1906 in Kent all have at least one second name. Do you think he was born somewhere other than Kent perhaps?
                                        If we accept the date of birth given on the death cert then there are no Harold Smith births showing on the index (Ancestry) for Kent in Dec Q 1906. There are however 18 Harold Smith births in Dec quarter 1906 throughout England & Wales.
                                        Margaret
                                        PS I have sent you a list by email and am checking the latest census to see what I can find.
                                        Last edited by margaretmarch; 10-03-11, 06:46.

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                                        • #40
                                          Just a thought Robert - from the Probate it looks like Norah was still alive when Harold died so I think it would be an idea to look for her death and any subsequent Will.
                                          I checked the death index for Norah May Smith b1906 and found this
                                          Norah May Smith
                                          Birth Date: 14 Dec 1905
                                          Death Registration Month/Year: Sep 1998
                                          Age at death (estimated): 92
                                          Registration district: Deben Inferred County: Suffolk
                                          Register number: 23C District and Subdistrict: 7431 Entry Number: 167

                                          The others of the same name with a similar age were in distant places and I think Norah did come from Suffolk and certainly the people named in Harold's Will were from those parts so I'm thinking she may have gone to live there when she was by herself.

                                          You could try for a Will at the local probate office which would only cost £5 for them to search rather than buy a death cert at £9.25.

                                          Margaret

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