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TNA (Kew) - Fri 4 June 2010

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  • Record Office: TNA (Kew) - Fri 4 June 2010

    I have an intended visit this coming Friday. It's slotted in so that we can go straight on to Southampton after OH's work, as my niece's wedding rehearsal starts there at 6pm. It seems daft to go backwards first, if we don't have to!

    I'm not sure how much of my own stuff there will be to do, and I'm not quite sure how the time will work out, either, but I'm willing to take a list of requests with me and do what I can in the time.

    When I was last there, the A3 print-outs from the 1911 census were 20p each. If I just transcribe, then it's only my time... and I'm not a professional genealogist...yet!

    Christine

    NO FURTHER REQUESTS BEING COLLECTED BEFORE VISIT
    Two lots of feedback, below.
    Last edited by Christine in Herts; 06-06-10, 22:20.
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

  • #2
    Could you please see if there's any references to wills for my GGF/GGM and my 2xGGF.

    GGF was James MURRAY (blacksmith/engineer/fitter) born 1858 and died November 1920 in Whitchurch, Shropshire. In the account sheet of the estate of his wife it says at the top that the said account was being sent to the eldest son (Joseph James) who had been the executor of his father's will. That's the only evidence I've ever found that GGF had a will. His wife (my GGM) was Sarah Ann MURRAY nee LATEWOOD born 1861 and died December 1938, also in Whitchurch, Shropshire. As there was an account/balance sheet of her estate I'm assuming she too actually had a will.

    The real nugget of gold would be a will for my 2xGGF also a James MURRAY born 1824, who lived in Ellesmere, Shropshire. In 1901 he was in Watergate Street, Ellesmere and owned a marine store and lived on his own account, according to the 1901 census. His wife was Ann MURRAY nee STOCKTON who died at Watergate Street in March 1904. Her death certificate is not signed by James but by one of her married daughters, Louisa JENKINS. I've been unable to establish when 2xGGF James actually died. There's no obvious matches in the GRO index. Was he dead before Ann (ie between 1901 and 1904)? I can't find him on 1911 census so I reckon he must have been dead by then at the outside. He certainly had money and property to dispose of. There are 3 children of James and Ann that are brickwalls for me and if they were mentioned in his will then that would help me enormously.

    Many thanks in advance.
    Last edited by GallowayLass; 31-05-10, 23:41. Reason: typo

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Christine,
      please could you have a look for Joseph Ray in the Greenwich pensioner records for me? I've found three references not sure if they are all him or just one, I've put all three below but will see if I can narrow it down to one.

      Thank you,
      Teresa

      ADM 29/70/181
      Original page number: 181
      Joseph RAY; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: 21; Dates served: 29 February 1828-31 January 1842; Date and Type of Application: Greenwich 26 May 1866

      ADM 29/59/264
      Joseph RAY; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: [Not Given]; Dates served: 29 February 1828-31 January 1842; Date and Type of Application: Greenwich 2 July 1859


      ADM 29/40/319

      Joseph RAY; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: 19; Dates served: 9 October 1826-10 January 1855; Date and Type of Application: Admiralty 22 May 1848 and others
      Last edited by Teresa; 01-06-10, 18:20.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
        Could you please see if there's any references to wills for my GGF/GGM and my 2xGGF.

        GGF was James MURRAY (blacksmith/engineer/fitter) born 1858 and died November 1920 in Whitchurch, Shropshire. In the account sheet of the estate of his wife it says at the top that the said account was being sent to the eldest son (Joseph James) who had been the executor of his father's will. That's the only evidence I've ever found that GGF had a will. His wife (my GGM) was Sarah Ann MURRAY nee LATEWOOD born 1861 and died December 1938, also in Whitchurch, Shropshire. As there was an account/balance sheet of her estate I'm assuming she too actually had a will.

        The real nugget of gold would be a will for my 2xGGF also a James MURRAY born 1824, who lived in Ellesmere, Shropshire. In 1901 he was in Watergate Street, Ellesmere and owned a marine store and lived on his own account, according to the 1901 census. His wife was Ann MURRAY nee STOCKTON who died at Watergate Street in March 1904. Her death certificate is not signed by James but by one of her married daughters, Louisa JENKINS. I've been unable to establish when 2xGGF James actually died. There's no obvious matches in the GRO index. Was he dead before Ann (ie between 1901 and 1904)? I can't find him on 1911 census so I reckon he must have been dead by then at the outside. He certainly had money and property to dispose of. There are 3 children of James and Ann that are brickwalls for me and if they were mentioned in his will then that would help me enormously.

        Many thanks in advance.
        I'm willing in principle, but are you sure that the relevant records are there? I'd be inclined to have a look in the Wiki about Wills. I think anything that late, you'd need the Probate list, and then apply to York (or wherever) for the copy.

        Christine
        Last edited by Christine in Herts; 01-06-10, 22:41.
        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

        Comment


        • #5
          I'll do what I can, Teresa, and let you know. The first two certainly look very similar.

          Christine
          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Christine in Herts View Post
            I'm willing in principle, but are you sure that the relevant records are there? I'd be inclined to have a look in the Wiki about Wills. I think anything that late, you'd need the Probate list, and then apply to York (or wherever) for the copy.

            Christine
            Umm, I dunno, never been to Kew and thought they had indexes to everything, loads not yet online! Hopefully they'll have something but if no, then no matter. I will look at WIKI wills section. I keep forgetting to look there.

            Comment


            • #7
              Kew has the National Probate Calendar on fiche (only up to 1943) so you could look up the entry on there but you'd still have to order the actual will from a Probate Office.
              The National Archives, Kew – Research Service Offered
              Contact me via PM on Family Tree Forum or via my personal website - www.militaryandfamilyresearch.co.uk

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks, Ann. So I should be able to help a bit, even if not in full!

                That makes me think... I know that there's a good bit on FMP, but it might be worth a hunt there for some of "my" Wills I'd thought ought to exist, but for which I haven't been able to find any record.

                Christine
                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Christine,
                  My Joseph Ray lived in Portsmouth, I've got him as a Naval Pensioner on the 1871 census so I think the most likey one to tell me what his injuries were is the first ADM 29/70/181 (although the second seems to relate to the same person as well.)

                  Teresa

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    OK Teresa. I'll see what I can do.

                    I did have a quick look at the C19th Newspapers, but altho' there were lots of hits for "Joseph Ray", none looked too likely to be yours. That is: I did look at some of them, but there were lots I didn't look at.

                    Christine
                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Feedback for Galloway Lass

                      Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                      Could you please see if there's any references to wills for my GGF/GGM and my 2xGGF.

                      GGF was James MURRAY (blacksmith/engineer/fitter) born 1858 and died November 1920 in Whitchurch, Shropshire. In the account sheet of the estate of his wife it says at the top that the said account was being sent to the eldest son (Joseph James) who had been the executor of his father's will. That's the only evidence I've ever found that GGF had a will. His wife (my GGM) was Sarah Ann MURRAY nee LATEWOOD born 1861 and died December 1938, also in Whitchurch, Shropshire. As there was an account/balance sheet of her estate I'm assuming she too actually had a will.

                      The real nugget of gold would be a will for my 2xGGF also a James MURRAY born 1824, who lived in Ellesmere, Shropshire. In 1901 he was in Watergate Street, Ellesmere and owned a marine store and lived on his own account, according to the 1901 census. His wife was Ann MURRAY nee STOCKTON who died at Watergate Street in March 1904. Her death certificate is not signed by James but by one of her married daughters, Louisa JENKINS. I've been unable to establish when 2xGGF James actually died. There's no obvious matches in the GRO index. Was he dead before Ann (ie between 1901 and 1904)? I can't find him on 1911 census so I reckon he must have been dead by then at the outside. He certainly had money and property to dispose of. There are 3 children of James and Ann that are brickwalls for me and if they were mentioned in his will then that would help me enormously.

                      Many thanks in advance.
                      The fiches are there up to 1943.
                      1921: James MURRAY, of Belton-road, Whitchurch, Shropshire, fitter, d. 22 November 1920. Probate Shrewsbury 21 January to Sarah Ann MURRAY, widow, and Joseph James MURRAY, police sergeant. Effects £1,371 0s 3d.
                      I tried looking for your nugget of gold, but without success, I'm afraid. There were some James MURRAY deaths over the dates I looked - sometimes quite a number - but none seemed a reasonable match to your target. I looked every year from 1901 to 1918 (according to my notes) but it was towards the end of my visit, and I had thought I'd gone up to 1919... which would then have joined up with the timespan for the first one.

                      I'm sorry I didn't get the 1938 hunt done: I got distracted by the idea of looking for traces of my great-grandfather's death in 1917. (I found the Admin record.)

                      I hope that's of some use. The Wiki will have relevant info for following that up. I'll try to remember your requests for next time I visit - but you might be wiser to re-ask, if I put up a message!

                      Christine
                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Feedback for Teresa

                        Originally posted by Teresa View Post
                        Hi Christine,
                        please could you have a look for Joseph Ray in the Greenwich pensioner records for me? I've found three references not sure if they are all him or just one, I've put all three below but will see if I can narrow it down to one.

                        Thank you,
                        Teresa

                        ADM 29/70/181
                        Original page number: 181
                        Joseph RAY; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: 21; Dates served: 29 February 1828-31 January 1842; Date and Type of Application: Greenwich 26 May 1866

                        ADM 29/59/264
                        Joseph RAY; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: [Not Given]; Dates served: 29 February 1828-31 January 1842; Date and Type of Application: Greenwich 2 July 1859


                        ADM 29/40/319

                        Joseph RAY; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: 19; Dates served: 9 October 1826-10 January 1855; Date and Type of Application: Admiralty 22 May 1848 and others
                        ADM 29 is held on microfilm (in drawer no. 1). The first item is on a reel with refs 69 - 70, so sequential numbers appear twice. The second is with refs 57 - 59, and the third with 39-41. I din't take copies, because you seemed uncertain which was likely to be useful. I transcribed some info...

                        The first two do appear to refer to the same person. The dates/ships combinations are the same, but there are some differences in the rank descriptions. Some of the ship's names are very difficult to read - either that, or they're very unexpected. I'll type in what they looked like to me, even if they seem odd. Someone else may be able to deduce the correct name. For example: I'd have like to make the first name "Britannia", and maybe it was, but it looked like "Britomar[t,s]". Info for 70/181 and 59/264 in that order (gaps in info shown as "[]"):
                        No. ~ Ship ~ Age ~ Entry ~ Rank ~ Discharged
                        #55 ~ Britomart ~ 21 ~ 29 Feb 28 ~Ord ~16 Mch 28
                        [] ~ do ~ [] ~ 17 Mar 28 ~ Ord ~ 11 Nov 30
                        #123 ~ Caledonian ~ 12 Nov 30 ~ Ord ~ 12 Feb 31
                        #62 ~ Malabar ~ [] ~ 19 Feb 38 ~ Ord mate ~ 31 Jan 39
                        #43 ~ Implacable ~ [] ~ 1 Feb 39 ~ do ~ 30 Mch 39
                        [] ~ do ~ [] ~ 31 March 39 ~ Ord ~ 31 Jan 42

                        The differences for the second ref are:
                        [a] all the ships' names have the suffix "F.S."
                        [b] the sequence of ranks appears to be: Ord, Armourer, do, Armourer's mate, do, Armourer & AB

                        The third ref is certainly a different person. I haven't transcribed all the info, but the ships are (or include):
                        Asia, Philomel, Atholl, Beacon, Madagascar, Seablower, Victory (1845-47), Blenheim, Illustrious, Britannia, Neptune, St Vincent.
                        In this set of data, the sequential numbers have been altered from the original page numbers, so No. 319 appears on page 157.

                        There was a column for "cause of leaving ship", but it was difficult to read the few entries there.

                        I hope this is enough for you to work out whether or not this info is of use to you - and which lot, if so.

                        Christine
                        Last edited by Christine in Herts; 06-06-10, 22:47. Reason: forgot heading
                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thank you Christine, I've been having a look for the ships mentioned and apart from the caledonian I've found them all...helps to add to more to Joseph's life. Not sure what FS is...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Teresa View Post
                            Thank you Christine, I've been having a look for the ships mentioned and apart from the caledonian I've found them all...helps to add to more to Joseph's life. Not sure what FS is...
                            It's good to know that what I found was useful. Next time I go, I'll try to remember to get the photo-copies/prints of the two that relate to your man.

                            Christine
                            Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Many thanks Christine. That's the GGF James sorted. I'll find out how much that will cost me to buy. I have had another stroke of luck with him. I got a photo sent to me yesterday so I know what he looked like at last. I'll keep looking for another post in the Research Offers but if you remember to PM me as well then I'll have a chance of seeing it coz I've got a sieve for brains :-)

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                                Many thanks Christine. That's the GGF James sorted. I'll find out how much that will cost me to buy. I have had another stroke of luck with him. I got a photo sent to me yesterday so I know what he looked like at last. I'll keep looking for another post in the Research Offers but if you remember to PM me as well then I'll have a chance of seeing it coz I've got a sieve for brains :-)
                                If it's only a question of copying a couple of sheets, then I could do it for you next time I'm there. I forget what the price is, but it's certainly less than £1 per sheet.

                                Christine
                                Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I've found a form in the Shropshire Archives website. It is for sending a postal application to York. A copy of the will (including the grant of probate paper if you want it) is £5 and will take up to 3 weeks. The cost is the same regardless of the length of the will and whether or not I supply the probate details that you found for me. If the date of probate is not known, they search for 4 years after the death date for the £5 fee. If they have to search more years, there is an extra charge of £3 per block of 4 years. Extra copies of the same documents requested at the same time are £1. Fees are non-returnable in the event of an unsuccessful search. There is no extra charge for a facsimile copy of the original documents but you must make such requests very clear at the time of ordering. The York office does not accept telephone requests and they can't yet take cards for payments.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I've found a form in the Shropshire Archives website. It is for sending a postal application to York. A copy of the will (including the grant of probate paper if you want it) is £5 and will take up to 3 weeks. The cost is the same regardless of the length of the will and whether or not I supply the probate details that you found for me.
                                    Yes, of course. I was being daft - crossed lines! I hope you get something useful!

                                    Christine
                                    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Hi Christine, that would be wonderful if you could get me photocopies.
                                      Thank you.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Teresa View Post
                                        Hi Christine, that would be wonderful if you could get me photocopies.
                                        Thank you.
                                        Sorry I didn't manage to get the copies yesterday: I didn't have long, there was one printer out of action, and the other two were busy. I'll ty again next time.

                                        I did manage to get another tantalising snippet about OH's Gx3-g-father, as recorded on the Q&A threads.

                                        Christine
                                        Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                        Comment

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