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Intro and an ongoing mystery

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  • Intro and an ongoing mystery

    Hi
    New here but have been researching the family tree for nearly two years. Although I’ve got back to 1600 in some lines I am really stuck with what should be a simple search for a great-grandfather. This has become a ‘search for Scott’ and is going to be the subject of a book I am writing.

    Scott has become something of a mystery and I have set up a few pages on a website where all the information so far found has been gathered. I’ve had help from many people but so far there is still no definite date of birth or date/place of death for Captain Arthur Henry ‘Boy’ Scott, who said (to his daughter) that he was related to Robert Falcon Scott of the Antarctic. We have two possible dates of birth (1859 from the back of a photo) and 1865/66 (in Croydon, father called Henry) from his marriage cert. and 1911 census. But no births or deaths found online fit the bill.

    I’m so caught up on finding him that I am going to Devon to search records etc. (I live in Greece so it’s been all online so far.) If anyone is interested in joining the hunt there are details on Scott (I hope I am allowed to post URLS here!)

    And if anyone can think of any more online places I can find out any more information that would be welcome. I've gone through the usual places, the ancestry sites, directories, wills, archives etc. and have bought a local history book (Sandford) which mentions him twice, so I know where he was between 1908 and 1929. The general period is 1859 to around the 1940s, the places are Croydon, Sandford in Devon, Morchard Bishop and Mortehoe; and the Boer Wars – as you will see if you look at the pages mentioned above.

    Thanks for reading. Any comments, advice or link-ups with people searching related trees would be welcome. Always happy to swap notes about anyone in my tree.

    James

    Directly related families: Scott (Croydon), Maxwell (Liverpool), Wood (Cheshire), Seddon (Lancashire), Cozens (Dorset/Somerset), Cave (Herefordshire).
    Am I related to Scott of the Antarctic? The hunt is on.
    http://www.symidream.com/scott/home.html
    My pages for families from Collin and Whittaker of Harlow to Cozens of Dorset to Soper of Cornwall and beyond…

  • #2
    Welcome to FTF!

    If you're after Boer War stuff - have you looked at Kevin Asplin's site? I can't remember what it's called, but it should appear if you Google.

    Devon has an OPC, I think. Certainly Devon FHS has a lot of materials available. There might be someone on FTF who could do some preliminary hunting for you - have a look in the Wiki, to see whether there are any look-up folks in Devon.

    If you're planning to visit any of the records offices there, make sure you look at their sites so you know their hours. For example, Plymouth & W Devon RO isn't open on Saturdays, and closes early on Fridays; furthermore, from what's been said on the site about the TNA-Kew rearrangements, there's a risk that there might be further cutbacks there.

    Have you checked the new Ancestry/LMA records? there is some Croydon material there.

    Christine
    Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, what a fascinating story and a huge puzzle!
      Have you asked GRO in what circumstances births can be re-registered and is there any more information about the reasons which might be held on other records elsewhere.
      If you click on the gedcom button at the top of this thread you can search the trees that have been uploaded by other members of FTF. I do believe the name Cave has been featured in threads here recently.
      I can't think just at the moment of anything else but no doubt others on here will be able to help/advise.
      Margaret

      Comment


      • #4
        You can search threads by clicking on 'search' top left of screen under where it says 'social groups'.
        Margaret

        Comment


        • #5
          Could this birth be any good
          Henry Arthur Scott 1859, Apr-May-Jun, District: Kingston, Middlesex, Surrey Volume: 2a, Page: 191
          Not sure how we can check which registration district Croydon came under at that time, but I think these two places are not too far apart.
          Margaret
          PS 12 miles between.
          Last edited by margaretmarch; 05-10-09, 17:25.

          Comment


          • #6
            From the other angle, have you looked at Robert Falcon Scott's family to see how you might be related - did he have brothers, uncles, cousins?

            I don't know much about Scott of the Antarctic, to know his timelines, but I will have a look in Wikipedia for a start. Sometimes this helps.

            I notice on your website you mentioned that "Ellen Cave" is noted as "sister-in-law" - did you know this term is also used for the relationship we now call Step-sister ? Have you looked at that angle ?

            Di

            Later
            Vairous websites say that Robert Falcon Scott was born 1868 in Stoke Demerel Devon (at Outlands the family home). His father John Edward Scott was the youngest of four sons of Robert or William Edward Scott (depending on which website). One son was with the East India Co and one with the Navy, either of whom could been called Henry and had a son born in Croydon. None of the websites have any information on John Edward Scotts brothers - its likely that the one with the East India Company was Geroge B Scott - still looking for them in 1841
            Last edited by dicole; 06-10-09, 00:27.
            Diane
            Sydney Australia
            Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

            Comment


            • #7
              James

              Interesting story.

              A few comments, apologies if you have already thought of this.

              Re registration is a serious thing. The Registrar doesn't like it and you have to jump through hoops to prove a good reason to re-register.

              A "False Registration" usually refers to a birth which never took place!

              It is immaterial whether the parents presented themselves as married or not. IF Scott was present at Registration then he can name himself as the child's father, doesn't matter if the parents are married or pretending to be married or whatever. Even if the mother registered the birth without the father present, she can call herself whatever she likes. The only wrong thing she has done is pretend to be married and named the father.

              I fail to see why either of the parents would go to the Registrar and confess and require a re-registration if it was just that they weren't married. I also don't think the Registrar General would allow a re-registration for that alone as the replacement certificate wouldn't show any difference in the facts.

              However, if Scott was already married to someone else, then the real Mrs Scott might have taken exception to Kate Maxwell pretending to be married and reported them to the Registrar...again, this is still not grounds for re registration. Possibly inheritance was an issue which spurred someone on to report them.

              The final registration in 1929 - she was 21. Significant? Also by 1929, the Legitimisation Act had been passed,(1926) which allowed the re registration of children born prior to that date if the parents married each other.

              No Registrar would allow a reregistration JUST to correct a birth address. Why was this so important to all concerned? Was Kate now a legitimate heir to Scott's money (yes) or was there some kind of shenanigans going on regarding the property at which Kate was supposedly born.

              Have you asked the GRO why you cannot view the details of the re registration in 1911? If they are citing the 100 year rule, then I think you can challenge that under the FOI Act. I have seen on another forum, details of a "closed" reregistration, which was a "false registration", at a much more recent date than 1911.. The local Registrar supplied the details in that case, which were that a woman had falsely registered the birth of a child which did not exist. The police were involved but no action was taken.

              Scott sounds a devious character. I suppose you have considered the possibility that he just plucked an identity out of thin air?

              OC

              Comment


              • #8
                OC................you and I must think alike.......could it be my tree that's made us like that?? lol


                Welcome to FTF James.

                I can't add much more to what's been said except to make sure you do try Kevin Asplin's site for info on the service records. He seems happy for you to email him. He found my ggg grandfather when we had all given up on him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wow! Well, first of all a huge thank you to everyone for taking the trouble to reply and give your thoughts and advice. Let me try and answer the question etc. in order:

                  Boer War: I have looked through Kevin Asplin’s site The Asplin Military History Resources but I didn’t know about contacting him directly, so we will try that. We (I have a friend in the UK working with me on this) have put messages on specialist forums about this, and others have done searches but not found a definite Captain Arthur Henry Scott etc.

                  Devon: I have had lots of help and suggestions from the kind folk at the Devon FHS, and somebody in the local area even went to Priorton House for me but the current owners did not have any records of previous owners, but it was a lovely gesture. And the OPC for Sandford couldn’t find any records either. I’ve now booked time at the Westcountry Library in Exeter for when I will be there and have also checked the opening times for the records office next door to it, and the library in Crediton. The only thing I am not sure about is if churchyards are generally open to the public these days, as I will want to hunt around Crediton, Sandford and Upton Hellions while I am in the area for a weekend.

                  I’m not sure about the Ancestry/LMA records, I’ll have to look in to that. And I will explore the Gedcom link as Margaretmarch suggested; I’m very new to this forum and haven’t had the chance to fully explore it all yet.

                  As for other Scotts, we’ve had a look at quite a few and yesterday we received the birth certificate for an Arthur Henry Scott, Croydon, father Henry, who was born on April 28th 1857 – which is inconclusive but tantalisingly interesting – my grandmother clearly put AH Scott’s birth as 20th April 1859. I have various possible Scotts in my FH programme, with different trees, in case we finally find the right one. And this includes RF Scott’s tree as far as I can work it out from censuses etc. I too have tried coming in the other direction, from him to me, as it were, but have got a bit stuck with his sisters. The biographies I have read don’t give too much detail about the family but every little helps.

                  The information about the rules around registering births is very interesting, and all new to me, many thanks for that. I have considered the possibility that my grandmother wasn’t Scott’s daughter at all, but I can’t see who else’s’ she may have been. Knowing (from my mother/aunt) that great grandmother Kate ‘preferred horses to children’ and found my grandmother to be ‘an inconvenience’ I wonder why she allowed herself to even risk becoming pregnant; but she obviously did.

                  The only thing I can think of regarding the 1929 re-registration is that it happened only a couple of months before Kate Marjorie’s wedding in July of that year. Her mother in law to be was known to be quite a formidable woman, the family she was marrying in to were quite wealthy and I wondered if Scott was trying to make sure that her illegitimate birth was completely covered up? There are other strange things taking place later when KM divorced; example, her father in law left his wealth in a trust for his great-grandchildren (me, my siblings and cousins) with the income to go to his grand daughters – but nothing to his daughter in law or her family – the Scott’s. There’s a whole different story here!

                  But the registration thing certainly needs some more investigation and I too feel that AH Scott may have been a bit of a ‘wide boy.’ Less of an old soldier and war hero related to RF Scott and more of a used carriage salesman from Croydon!

                  But thanks again and sorry this is such a long post. The hunt continues.
                  Am I related to Scott of the Antarctic? The hunt is on.
                  http://www.symidream.com/scott/home.html
                  My pages for families from Collin and Whittaker of Harlow to Cozens of Dorset to Soper of Cornwall and beyond…

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    James.....

                    You wil get lots of help and ideas here. I know I have.
                    I'm in Australia so can't search in the offices of England either, but i did contact Kevin Asplin and he helped no end.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I've had another think about these certs and realised something VERY odd is going on here, lol!

                      I think what you have posted as the "first" birth cert is actually the second. You have cropped the bottom, so I can't judge what day the cert was actually written out.

                      You should not have been able to get a copy of this cert, as the reregistration in 1928 replaces both previous certs, which should have been suppressed by the GRO. The 1908 cert should have been suppressed by the 1911 one.

                      I did think I'd cracked it but I haven't - I thought the wording on the third cert might indicate an adoption, but it doesn't, sorry.

                      My suggestion - when you are in Devon, go to the Barnstaple Register Office with the certs you have and ask them if they can think of any reason why there would be three registrations. Local Registrars are human, get bored and like a mystery! With a bit of luck, they will tell you something useful (and may even look up the cause of the two reregistrations!)

                      Of course, it MAY just have been that Scott was a bit of a nitpicker, lol, and was the sort of person who found fault with everything and wanted it put right! However, the Registrar General is officially an implacable type and would not be moved by frivolous reasons.

                      OC
                      Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 06-10-09, 21:42. Reason: superfluous s.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you want to know more about Robert Falcon Scott who lived at "Outlands" Plymouth, then I suggest you also visit the Plymouth and West Devon Record Office. Plymouth jealously guards its history from Exeter so anything on RF Scott will be more likely to be in the Plymouth Archives! However, I have found more history at the Plymouth Main Library in Tavistock Road and I am sure I remember doing a project on Scott through the material in the library. The Record Office is rather small and not always good at finding the material required.

                        Janet
                        Last edited by Janet; 06-10-09, 22:46.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Janet View Post
                          ...The Record Office is rather small and not always good at finding the material required.

                          ...
                          Also, it's closed on Saturdays, and closes early (4pm) on Fridays.

                          On the plus side, they're very willing to take in relevant materials as loan/permanent-loan or as gift. We've put quite a bit of stuff from earlier years of OH's family there, on the grounds that they have the means of looking after it properly, and other members of the family ought to be able to get at it.

                          Christine
                          Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Another thought.

                            When people re-invent themselves, they tend to stick to what they know, just in case they are questioned. So you may find he was indeed in the Army, but not a Captain.

                            The disparity in his age may have had something to do with having a younger wife.

                            OC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks again for all the tips and thoughts. We’ve started looking into the RF Scott family tree and if there is a connection it will be a fairly distant one, and one that comes from an uncle or great uncle etc. of RF Scott.

                              I don’t think I will have time for Plymouth on my upcoming trip, the main job is to find an obituary or grave, or both, and a date of death, hopefully with age, for AH Scott. As he was around Crediton, Sandford and later Taunton the local papers will be the place to start I guess. (So I mean need to go to Taunton at some point.) As he appears to have been ‘in’ with his local society in the 1910’s and 1920’s I’m hoping there will be some mention of him in a local paper, even if he didn’t die in that area.

                              Thanks again to everyone!
                              Am I related to Scott of the Antarctic? The hunt is on.
                              http://www.symidream.com/scott/home.html
                              My pages for families from Collin and Whittaker of Harlow to Cozens of Dorset to Soper of Cornwall and beyond…

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                James,
                                You can look at many local newspapers at the British Library in Colindale, London. They have loads on microfiche as well as hard copies. On maybe try Times Online Archive. Finally you can see if there is any mention of Arthur in newspapers held in the Gale collection through Lancashire libraries online membership - they allow anyone to join from anywhere in the world!
                                Here's the link Lancashire library and information service
                                Margaret

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Thanks for that info, I will follow it up. I have found two advertisments in the Times archives; Kate Scott renting out a house in Mortehoe, I assume Culver Park Lodge, but it doesn't actually say an address. But knowing that they advertised in the Times gives me hope that they may turn up in other newspapers. Will carry on searching!
                                  J
                                  Am I related to Scott of the Antarctic? The hunt is on.
                                  http://www.symidream.com/scott/home.html
                                  My pages for families from Collin and Whittaker of Harlow to Cozens of Dorset to Soper of Cornwall and beyond…

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    James

                                    I'm sure I don't need to tell you to be careful when assessing death information such as death certs/memorial inscriptions etc - death information is only as good as the knowledge of the informant and isn't necessarily the truth, if someone has been living a lie all of their adult life.

                                    By odd coincidence, I picked up the newspaper yesterday and there was a review of a new book written about Scott of the Antarctic.

                                    It is alleged that he had an affair with a wealthy married American woman (although the authors discount this). Captain Oates (I may be gone some time) also had a less than savoury past, having fathered a child on an eleven year old Scottish girl in 1900. Again this is discounted as not having been proved, but I've googled and the evidence is pretty compelling.

                                    The point of me telling you this is to demonstrate how easily those in a privileged position could cover their mistakes and appear impeccably socially correct.

                                    It may all be just coincidence of course, but the Scottish connection here fascinates me.

                                    It is still in my mind that Kate Marjorie was not the child of EITHER of them and the "false registration" refers to this, although I do wonder why Kate would do this, unless it was to cover up for a close family member.

                                    I think KM's father left his money in Trust to a distant generation in order to stop Scott getting his hands on any of it - in other words, he would be well dead when the money became available. This may also be why he did not leave his daughter any money, or he may have felt she had had enough money from him while he was alive.

                                    OC

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by margaretmarch View Post
                                      James,
                                      ... Finally ... newspapers held in the Gale collection through Lancashire libraries online membership - they allow anyone to join from anywhere in the world!
                                      Here's the link Lancashire library and information service
                                      Margaret
                                      Is that really so? I'm so tempted, but I thought that it was exactly that kind of thing that got Bedfordshire(?) stamped on, before (over the TDA).

                                      Christine
                                      Researching: BENNETT (Leics/Birmingham-ish) - incl. Leonard BENNETT in Detroit & Florida ; WARR/WOR, STRATFORD & GARDNER/GARNAR (Oxon); CHRISTMAS, RUSSELL, PAFOOT/PAFFORD (Hants); BIGWOOD, HAYLER/HAILOR (Sussex); LANCASTER (Beds, Berks, Wilts) - plus - COCKS (Spitalfields, Liverpool, Plymouth); RUSE/ROWSE, TREMEER, WADLIN(G)/WADLETON (Devonport, E Cornwall); GOULD (S Devon); CHAPMAN, HALL/HOLE, HORN (N Devon); BARRON, SCANTLEBURY (Mevagissey)...

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Christine - yes it was! I'm not sure how Lancshire are getting away with it!!! I used to access the 19C newspapers through Bedfordshire and they were very apologetic when they had to withdraw the service for non Bedfordshire residents. However - I can now get in through Cumbria libraries, who began their subscription at a later date (at my suggestion!).

                                        Anne

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