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  • Help with a brickwall?

    I wonder if anyone can help me find my hubbies ancestors?

    I have a John Seymour b. 1886 unknown (from marriage cert)
    he married a Mary Jane Ashworth b. 1883 Chadderton, Manchester

    Mary Jane had been married to a Frank Sidlow, with one son, Harold b.1900, before marrying John Seymour in Failsworth, Manchester on 6 Feb 1913.

    On their wedding certificate it gave John's father as John also. Both were listed as colliers, but that is as much as I have found.

    I can't seem to find John jnr in any census's and have tried looking for any Seymour families who were colliers, but found nothing?

    Can anyone help knock down this wall??

  • #2
    Not much help from me.

    I looked at the 1911 census and found Mary Jane living with Harold and Frank - her age is given as 33, making her born about 1878 rather than 1883. There are several Mary Jane Ashworth's born 1877-79 in Oldham Reg District. But you should try to find her in 1881 and 1891. Maybe she lied about her age on her second marriage so she would not appear so much older than John.

    Lookng in Freebmd for John Seymour born 1881-1888, there are not too many registrations that would seem to fit the son of a collier - lots in and around London.

    Lacking any further information, I would look at each John Seymour and try to find him 1891 and 1901 and even 1911 and eliminate him as a possible husband for Mary Jane - ie if he was not a collier, and far from Manchester in 1911, he would seem an unlikely candidate.
    Diane
    Sydney Australia
    Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson

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    • #3
      Was john a bachelor in 1913?

      Do you know who the marriage witnesses are?

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      • #4
        I think the age on the 1911 census is correct.

        1901 census Frank Sidlow 33 is a collier living at 480 Oldham Road, Sidlow with his wife Mary Jane age 22 and son Harold 10 months. Frank and Harold were born Failsworth and Mary Jane in Chadderton.

        1891 census she is living as a servant, aged 12, in the household of Edward Tetton (publican) at 86 [Block?] Lane, Chadderton. She also is has an occupation of scholar.

        1881 census she is listed as Mary J. Ashworth age 2 living with her parents James Ashworth 34 (mechanic) and Elizabeth 35 (housewife) and her siblings Eda age 9 and Ernest age 7. Address 269 Nashbrook, Chadderton. James and Elizabeth were born Hollinwood, Lancs. Eda in dukinfield, Cheshire, Ernest in Oldham, Lancs. and Mary J. in Chadderton.

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        • #5
          1891 census

          Frank Sidlow age 23, collier in coal mine, is living with his family at 99 Ashton Road, Failsworth. all the family are born Failsworth. His parents are Samuel and Maria. I can't make out the occupations for Frank's siblings.

          Samuel age 48, head, labourer.
          Maria age 48, wife
          Frank (as above)
          Ann age 21
          Fanny age 19
          Eliza age 16
          Job age 14
          Jesse age 11, scholar

          There is also another Job, nephew, age 11, scholar, born Failsworth

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          • #6
            Sorry but I can't see your John Seymour with/without a father John in either 1891 or 1901 on ancestry or the 1901 site

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            • #7
              Here's all the John Seymours I could find in 1901, b within ten years of 1886 (in case he lied!), whose occ is something to do with mining:

              John Seymour 14 Crook Durham Durham Crook & Billy Row Hewer Coalminer

              John Seymour 17 Yorkshire Streethouse Yorkshire Snydale Coal Screener Above Ground

              John W Seymour 18 Durham Crook Durham Witton Gilbert Colliery Labourer Below

              John G Seymour 20 Durham White Len Durham Shildon Putter In Coal Mine

              John Seymour 22 Somerset Somerset Radstock Coalminer C Hewer

              You could try finding each on Ancestry 1901/1891 to see who their father's are. Obviously yours might be doing something else in 1901, but I still thought it might be worth posting.

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              • #8
                If you get desperate, I'm wondering if he served in WW1 (a lot of miners were recruited to build underground works and tunneling) - I see they had a child in 1916 and his army number could be on the birth cert. A long shot!!

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                • #9
                  I think I have correct family certs here. There were 2 Mary Jane Ashworths born in 1878 in Chadderton. I checked marriages for a James Ashworth (c.1868 for bride's surname and only one of the brides was Elizabeth, the other was an Alice. So Mary Jane's mother was Elizabeth Bryan.

                  Ashworth, James married Bryan, Elizabeth at Ashton under Lyne, St Michael's CE4/19/217

                  Ashworth, Eda born 2Q 1870 Ashton under Lyne 8d 501 (can't find local cert no. for this)

                  Ashworth, Ernest born 1873 Oldham Below Town, Oldham OBT/101/9 mother's m.s. Brian

                  Ashworth, Mary Jane born 1878 Chadderton, Oldham CHAD/40/01 mother's m.s. Bryan

                  In 1851 and 1861 there's only 1 census match for a James Ashworth and annoyingly he's living with his granny Ann Ashworth (shopkeeper in 1851 and knitter of stockings in 1861) at Bradley Bent, Oldham Below Town, Oldham. In 1861 he's James E. Ashworth

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                    Here's all the John Seymours I could find in 1901, b within ten years of 1886 (in case he lied!), whose occ is something to do with mining:

                    John Seymour 14 Crook Durham Durham Crook & Billy Row Hewer Coalminer

                    John Seymour 17 Yorkshire Streethouse Yorkshire Snydale Coal Screener Above Ground

                    John W Seymour 18 Durham Crook Durham Witton Gilbert Colliery Labourer Below

                    John G Seymour 20 Durham White Len Durham Shildon Putter In Coal Mine

                    John Seymour 22 Somerset Somerset Radstock Coalminer C Hewer

                    You could try finding each on Ancestry 1901/1891 to see who their father's are. Obviously yours might be doing something else in 1901, but I still thought it might be worth posting.
                    Thanks for that.
                    I'd also got a list of all the possibles and even looked into the areas which could be relevant for miners, but still haven't found a son, John with a father John??

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                      Was john a bachelor in 1913?

                      Do you know who the marriage witnesses are?
                      Yes, Merry, John was a batchelor in 1913 at his wedding. Aged 27.
                      He was living at 5 Ash St. Failsworth at the time and his father, John was deceased. Both were colliers.

                      The witnesses were William Jones and Jane Richardson.

                      Mary Jane was listed as a widow, aged 30, and working as a tenter? She was living at All Saint's Newton Heath and her father, James Ashworth (a fitter) was also deceased.

                      Tracy

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                      • #12
                        Ooooh, I've found him!! 100%

                        I just need to go and make my children go to sleep, back shortly :D

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Merry Monty Montgomery View Post
                          Ooooh, I've found him!! 100%

                          I just need to go and make my children go to sleep, back shortly :D
                          You're a star, Monty.... the suspense is killing me!:D

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                          • #14
                            Right.....

                            British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920 (search for John Seymour and he's the 6th one down)

                            Army no 27678

                            August 17th 1914 he says he was 29 years 13 days

                            born at Newbiggin Northumberland (can't see a birth reg!! lol)

                            Something odd next as he says he was married to Mary Jane Ashworth (a spinster!) on 3rd Feb 1900 at the Register Office Prestwich. States witnesses as E Pennington and Alice Pennington.

                            I see her first marriage was in Q1 1900, so don't quite know why he is playing games there?

                            Children:

                            Harold
                            Herbert
                            John
                            Ivy

                            Address: 122 Oldham Road, Failsworth, Manchester.

                            There's a physical description and the reason why he has a war pension.

                            Needless to say I can't find him instantly in 1891 or 1901. I have discovered there are several places called Newbiggin though, in various northern counties, so maybe Northumberland is the wrong one?

                            Anyway, still one step forward (and two back?!)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In the 1880's Newbiggin registrations were as follows:

                              Newbiggin, Durham - Teesdale District
                              Newbiggin, Yorks North Riding - Aysgarth District
                              Newbiggin, Westmoreland - East Ward District

                              Then there's two Newbiggins in Northumberland

                              One was in Hexham district until 1887 and the other in Castle Ward District.

                              Lastly, there's Newbiggin-by-the-Sea in Northumberland which was in Morpeth District.

                              Great eh? Nearly as bad as being born in Preston (loads of those!)

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                              • #16
                                He might have lied about the marriage so that all the children would benefit from a pension if he was killed?

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                                • #17
                                  Thanks for all that, Merry. At least that will narrow it down an awful lot!

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                                  • #18
                                    Hi all

                                    I think we've all reached the same conclusions on this:

                                    Newbiggin? Family History Local History


                                    Giz
                                    Giz
                                    畫意能達萬言

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