Married at 12???

[Trina]

I would really appreciate your opinion on this. I have my Great Uncle's marriage certificate for Sep 13th 1909 Richard David Durrant, 19,bachelor Carman of 1 Deason Street Stratford. Father James Durrant Carman.
That fits with what I know already.
He marries Florence Hardy, 19, spinster of 6, Earl Street Stratford. Father is Alfred Hardy, costermonger.
Witnesses are David Baxter and Annie Nichols. They don't ring any bells!

The only Florence Hardy with a father Alfred Hardy who is a costermonger (gold and silver) is aged 4 in 1901 (born Clerkenwell London)
That would put her about 12 when she marries.

In 1911 Richard is home - no wife- shown as married

In 1916 he gives her as his wife, but whereabouts unknown on his "call up" papers. Address is 1 Deason Street again.

There were almost certainly 2 daughters from this marriage, who were abandoned and sent to, possibly, Canada.

I can't find Florence in 1911 - under her maiden or married name - despite spending a lot of money!

Is it possible that this is the correct Florence? Family lore says she was OLDER than him, but it could have become confused I suppose!

I would be grateful to hear what others make of this.

Trina

[Asa]

Sorry, I added but had misread something so will think again:-)

[JulesSmith]

What does it say on the marriage cert about the age of Florence? IGNORE just seen it says 19

[Asa]

Trina, the Alfred Hardy in 1901 is a gold and silver caster not a costermonger - costermongers were stall holders, fruit and veg sellers. I don't think you've found the right family.

[Phoenix]

I found one missing spouse in the county lunatic asylum in 1911, with just her initials. Another was in the workhouse, miles away from her birth county.

I can't generalise from just two women, but both had had fractured childhoods, with several stepfathers.

It is possible that Florence was no longer living with her father by 1901, that he was dead, or had changed trade. Can you find the 1901 father in 1911 or any of his family? Did you locate him in 1891?

Did the 1911 census show any children? Do the call up papers? Do any of the immigration sites show the arrival of the girls in Canada?

It is possible to be married at 12, but it is vanishingly rare for this to happen.

[Ozzie Gert]

Could this be them mistranscribed as Hanby in 1901

Alfred Hanby 34
Mary Hanby 33
Florence Hanby 11
Leslie Hanby 4
Willer Hanby 9 months

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 1429; Folio: 67; Page: 29.


Edited to add, Alfred is a manager in a blind institution and the image looks like Hanby

Sylvia

[Trina]

Thankyou for taking the time to look at this for me.

Asa you are right. It does say caster! The Hardy family were street traders or market traders ( only according to family though) and I read it as coster! Thought trading in precious metals on a barrow sounded a bit dangerous!!

At least I know it is the wrong family now. Back to the drawing board.

If she is living with someone else under a different name I probably don't stand a chance.

Phoenix I have looked for the girls, but no firm hits. I'm going to look again though as I may be able to narrow it down a bit with some more information.

[Trina]

Thank you Ozzie - I suppose it is possible. They were supposed to be a "rough" lot and market traders!
Richard was brother to my Grandfather - I was told that GF met my grandmother when he returned from the Army in India and was looking for his 2 neices. He was told a woman in Peckham was looking after them - my G Grandmother - and he met Nan that way. The girls later went to Canada and my mother remembers their photo on her bedroom wall. Don't think anyone knows where Florence was!

[Trina]

I don't suppose being the manager of a blind institution was the qualified job then that it would be today!

[Olde Crone Holden]

But people DID trade in precious metals off market stalls and still do so today!

If she was 4 in 1901, then she could have been born in 1896, which would have made her 13 at marriage. Unusual but not impossible and in my experience, MORE likely in a tightish community like market traders.

However, I wonder why she said she was 19 and not 21, lol.

OC

[Trina]

Well thank you for the support - I feel a little less silly now! Those were the lines I was thinking along. She gives 19 as that is her husband's age and she wouldn't want to appear to be older I suppose.
Sadly, I think Asa is right though. It does look as though the word is caster rather than coster - in 2 censuses.

I was feeling so smug at having tracked her down too! Richard's military papers describe a tattoo ILFH and I thought it may stand for I Love Florence H. From that I found the certificate.

However - better to know than to go down the wrong path!

[Asa]

Have a look at this one on the 1901, Trina

RG13; Piece: 1565; Folio: 144; Page: 54

There is a 15 year old Florence Hardy, daughter of Robert, fruit salesman at 4 Earl Street, Stratford.

[Trina]

That sounds really promising - the house numbers seem to change around - in fact there Has to be a connection! I'm off to take a look. Thank you so much

[Asa]

Looks likely to me, Trina If Florence was supposed to be older than Richard and her father was a costermonger and it's the same street. Odd about the first name but it happens. I really don't think a gold and silver caster would also be described as a costermonger which was commonly used for fruit and veg barrow boys.

[KiteRunner]

I was feeling so smug at having tracked her down too! Richard's military papers describe a tattoo ILFH and I thought it may stand for I Love Florence H.

"I Love Family History", surely?!

[WendyP]

HI

Have you tried an address search in the 1911 census to see if there are any of clues as to Florences family? She gave that address on the marriage cert 3 years earlier any maybe someone from her familiy is still there.

[WendyP]

HI

Just been looking at the marriage index and there are a few marriages of a Florence G Hardy between the 190 and 1918 so tread carefully as this new Florence with father Robert still may not be the one.

[Trina]

"I Love Family History", surely?!

Sometimes!!!!

[Trina]

I agree. Too many coincidences. Perhaps there is an "uncle" involved, or maybe he was known by a third name that doesn't make it into the BMD's. I've looked for an Alfred, but haven't found one yet! There are a number of possible births for a Florence Hardy which makes it a bit expensive to go that route quite yet. Unless I stipulate the father should either have Alfred OR Robert in the name.....