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  • #21
    LGBT Research

    Many thanks to all of you who replied to my post, I really do appreciate the time and thought you have all put in to your replies. I take on board everything you collectively say, and yes, it is very difficult to assess someone's sexuality if they were cautious about revealing too much, maybe their relatives were ashamed of them and therefore kept talk of them to a minimum, or there is scanty evidence in records such as the census to go on. But if you think about it, 50 years ago finding out about the lives of ordinary women such as factory workers or domestic servants was also perceived as difficult or unimportant as "History" as a discipline was male centred in many ways. So it is now with LGBT history; it is a relatively new discipline and there is still much work to be done and if we keep searching, more information will come to light.
    Court records, newspaper reports and other "Public Domain" resources are of course one excellent source of information and the individuals mentioned in them can be traced back to their relatives and put in a familial context. However, there are undoubtedly many LGBT people in family trees who have yet to be uncovered and oral history is a good way of doing so. I agree that one has to distinguish between "gossip" and genuine information, but that is one of the skills of an oral historian. I am sure all of you will have talked to older friends and relatives about their lives and so will be aware of the benefits and pitfalls of doing so.
    I think it is highly likely that out of all the millions of entries in census returns, some same sex couples would have felt courageous enough to reveal their relationships to a degree, and of course due to the law, lesbians sometimes had a much easier time of it than gay men. As in every group of people, and LGBT people are no exception, some would be able to cope with being more forthcoming about themselves than others. Throughout history, for instance, lesbians have cross dressed, passed as men, and/or lived openly and largely peaceably with their women partners, whilst others could only pursue their love affairs with women from the relative safety of a "straight" marriage. Incidentally, just a gentle correction - there is no documentary proof that Queen Victoria stated she could not believe that two women would have a sexual relationship and therefore the matter did not require legislation. It's an amusing thought and would fit her character nicely!... but sadly the moment may not actually have happened.
    Yes, many LGBT people were married in the past and therefore contributed to family trees in that they had children. My lesbian great grandmother married at 26, had nine children and ran a number of businesses. She had no choice in 1880 but to marry, the pressures on most women then to do so would be too great to fight, and the same is true of gay men. This does not mean that they didn't still feel the pull of their sexuality. It was only when my g-grandmother was older that she felt able to dress as she wanted to ( a blue pinstripe suit in her case!) and go out socialising with her women friends. As I sure you are aware, many thousands of LGBT people even today are married, raising families and struggling with their feelings at the same time.
    Thank you all once again for your contributions. "Queer" family history is a very challenging and also exciting facet of genealogy and I am very much looking forward to building on my research so far. Kind Regards, Gil

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    • #22
      One ancestor I'd forgotten about (because she isn't a close one), is Amy Bock, a cross-dressing woman who actually married as a man (allegedly without the bride's knowledge):

      Puke Ariki - Taranaki Stories - The bridegroom was a woman - Amy Bock

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
        Joan

        Are you sure that "wife" was not just an enumerator's error!

        I honestly think it EXTREMELY unlikely that anyone would admit such a relationship "publicly".

        OC
        Yeah I think it was. I don't think putting wife would have been intentional.

        I have a census with an unmarried sister as Head and her sister in law (brother's) wife listed as Wife rather than sister in law! I just know she was but I suppose if there weren't any family connection it could have been misconstrued by someone reading it in 2009.

        As for lesbianism and homosexuality I certainly think we'd have no proof one way or the other for previous generations. There wasn't a place for them in society. Certainly not for homosexuals until 1967. For lesbanism its never been illegal but for most immoral and unheard of in genteel society as OC says.

        The only homosexuality of recent times gone by before it was legal was the famous who seemed not to care about their public persona because they had a lot of qudos, intelligence, talent, money or all four.

        One that I can think of is Oscar Wild who I do believe was Bi-sexual and in later years Quentin Crisp, Noel Coward being quite openly homosexual. Although there was John Gleguid, Michael Redgrave (Bi-Sexual). But they were all famously in the 'entertainment/acting/writing world' where it was tolerated because it just was.

        In the 18th century England there were Molly houses. Men used to go and dress up as women and play the feminine role in sexual relationships/orgies. That is well documented.

        In the last century 'Ordinary' folk daren't come out which led to some sad stories and lives of sordid sex and hiding your true sexuality. I'm glad its not like that now. Although in individual cases I think that there's still some conflicts with the truth in some familities.
        Last edited by Guest; 18-02-09, 20:01.

        Comment


        • #24
          I remember my mother used to sing "Sweet Polly Oliver" to me, always had me in floods of tears, lol.

          The song was about a woman who "dressed up in her dead brother's clothes" and went off to be a soldier.

          Now, this innocent and mawkish song may have hidden a story about a cross-dressing lesbian, but that thought never occurred to me (because I wouldn't have known about auch things as a child) and CERTAINLY not to my mother, who would have fainted at the very thought!

          Transexuals are a bit different I think. Even today, one in 1,000 babies has the wrong gender assigned at birth and I am sure this must have been far more frequent even 50 years ago, let alone 200. I have seen one or two baptisms for instance, of males who later appear as females. Whether this was just a recording error on the part of the Vicar, or whether the child grew up to be obviously of the other sex, I have no way of knowing.

          We used to visit an elderly "auntie" when I was a child. A quiet refined woman who had never married. My mother told me that "auntie" had been engaged for TWENTY TWO years, the supposed reason being that her intended's mother was frail and sickly, and he couldn't marry while mother was still alive.

          Auntie got fed up waiting and went to see the old lady - she had never met her. The old lady - fit as a fiddle - told her that her son would never marry her, she wished he would, but he "had a gentleman friend" of longstanding. Auntie, who had never suspected a thing, never got over the shock.

          OC

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          • #25
            Well again you see there's lots of different sexualities and lifetyles within the two legal Genders.

            Transexuals are totally different to Transvestites, Homosexuals can be either or neither and lesbans can be whatever they like because its easier for women to be gay now as it was then and blend in.

            Two old spinisters living together 100 years ago no one would've batted an eyelid. Two old maids as companions in their dotage, on the shelf the poor old dears.

            Two men living together for a long time would raise suspicion especially if it were into old age unless they were brothers or related in some way.

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            • #26
              Maggie

              I agree that theatre folk and the like have often lived openly gay lives in the past...but it was never talked about in public!

              I can still remember my astonishment, once the law had altered, to learn that people like Noel Coward were gay! (Oooh, I was ever so innocent, lol).

              Two men living together might even have attracted a police visit!

              OC

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              • #27
                Good Luck with your PHD Gil.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by gilrossini View Post
                  Yes, many LGBT people were married in the past and therefore contributed to family trees in that they had children. My lesbian great grandmother married at 26, had nine children and ran a number of businesses. She had no choice in 1880 but to marry, the pressures on most women then to do so would be too great to fight, and the same is true of gay men. This does not mean that they didn't still feel the pull of their sexuality. It was only when my g-grandmother was older that she felt able to dress as she wanted to ( a blue pinstripe suit in her case!) and go out socialising with her women friends.
                  As a matter of interest and you may have said way up this thread and I have missed it but how did you find out that your great grandmother was a lesbian?

                  Originally posted by gilrossini View Post
                  As I sure you are aware, many thousands of LGBT people even today are married, raising families and struggling with their feelings at the same time.
                  Thank you all once again for your contributions. "Queer" family history is a very challenging and also exciting facet of genealogy and I am very much looking forward to building on my research so far. Kind Regards, Gil
                  Yeah quite a few but not as many as in the last century hopefully.

                  That's a strange expression 'Queer Family History' although probably accurate as the term Queer is quite old.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                    Maggie

                    I agree that theatre folk and the like have often lived openly gay lives in the past...but it was never talked about in public!

                    I can still remember my astonishment, once the law had altered, to learn that people like Noel Coward were gay! (Oooh, I was ever so innocent, lol).

                    Two men living together might even have attracted a police visit!

                    OC
                    No never talked about in public only in their world but it was a world they had created the world of the 'elite' and the 'admonished' but it was public knowledge just never 'talked' about publicly.

                    As Kennith Williams said in his diaries - his father used to say to him and this is not verbatim - I don't want all those poofs and the like round here.

                    Oh you did lead a sheltered life OC and I'm not that young btw but I don't know how old you are ;)
                    Last edited by Guest; 18-02-09, 20:33.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by maggie_4_7 View Post
                      You did lead a sheltered life OC and I'm not that young btw but I don't know how old you are ;)
                      No one knows her age, maggie! (probably not OC herself either!)

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        OC & Maggie

                        When I found her on the census I was quite stunned as it made it quite plain they were "partners" in the love sense. They were both unmarried, & in their 40's, & as far as I remember the wording was Miss Whatever , unmarried teacher then underneath Miss Wotsit "Her wife" !!!!!!!!!! That's why I was taken aback as it was not covered up in any way. I nearly put the census ref on here at the time as I had never seen that before on any census. As I said she was a twig, the daughter of a distant uncle or something so I didn't bother to keep a note of it.


                        Joanie

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                        • #32
                          Hi Joan,

                          Do you think it might have been the opinion of the enumerator? I can't remember where I read this but I recall seeing a write up about a certain enumerator who noted his personal opinion on a lot of his census returns, making it quite clear who he thought the 'Loose women' of the neighbourhood were.

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                          • #33
                            Hi Keptin

                            Of course that's possible but her occupation as a teacher would have made her pretty respectable I would have thought at that time? Well hopefully anyway , lol!

                            :D

                            Joanie

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                            • #34
                              It was only when my g-grandmother was older that she felt able to dress as she wanted to ( a blue pinstripe suit in her case!) and go out socialising with her women friends.

                              Just out of curiosity...what did that make her? I have a blokes diner suit and I wear it! Doesn't make me a cross dresser,nor a lesbian if I wear it out with my 'girl' friends.


                              "Queer" family history is a very challenging
                              By that you mean??????????? Unusual family history? Or are you refering to gays & lesbians as 'queers', in which case I find it quite offensive.
                              Jess

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                                Mary

                                No, Lesbianism was never illegal in this country because no one could bring themselves to tell Queen Victoria about it! (So no law could be passed against it)


                                OC
                                It very nearly became illegal in 1921 when the House of Commons passed a bill criminalizing it.
                                However the House of Lords rejected the bill on the grounds that passing it might raise the profile of lesbianism and encourage more women to try it.
                                Cheers
                                Guy
                                Guy passed away October 2022

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                                • #36
                                  Sometimes...............just sometimes..................I'd like a wife.......lol

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                                  • #37
                                    Guy

                                    LOLOLOL!!!

                                    OC

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Jessbowbag View Post
                                      [B]


                                      "Queer" family history is a very challenging
                                      By that you mean??????????? Unusual family history? Or are you refering to gays & lesbians as 'queers', in which case I find it quite offensive.

                                      Jess, I believe this is quite common among the gay and lesbian community nowadays. Like black singers talking about ******* - it's offensive if other people use the term, but they're happy to use it themselves.
                                      Last edited by KiteRunner; 19-02-09, 17:00.

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                                      • #39
                                        I think Gil was using the term "Queer" to reflect the times in which that word was generally used.

                                        We don't use it now - well, I don't - as it reflects a hopefully dead attitude.

                                        OC

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                                        • #40
                                          I suggest Gil's use of Queer refers to Queer Theory; an academic look at heteronormativity.

                                          My OH had a great-aunt (b 1902) who would now identify as lesbian - the whole family knew about her and her long-term partner.

                                          Jen xx
                                          "I try to take one day at a time but sometimes lots of days attack me at once"

                                          ;)

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