I know you like something interesting to do :)

[Heather Positive Thinker]

WELL people, the Original Poster has come over from GR as yogi on here and has this to add now:

Hi Heather, sorry I have taken a while, have been gathering more info to answer some of your FTF friends questions. I'm afraid I don't run with theory that Frederick is a fictitious character as there is too much evidence from to many quarters to suggest he did exist, problem is still that he only shows up in the 1871 census in Exeter , No birth,marriage or Death certificates does this mean systematically scouring the entire country oh dear! Any way here we are;

Marriage Cert.1900, for Beatrice Frances Bellamy (21)states father as Frederick Samuel Bellamy (Deceased), witnessed by Frederick Samuel Bellamy

Marriage Cert.1905, for Frederick Samuel Bellamy(21) states father as Frederick Samuel Bellamy

Marriage Cert.1898, for Maud Ellen Bellamy (20)states father as Frederick Samuel Bellamy (Deceased), witnessed by Beatrice Francis Bellamy

Marriage Cert.1892, for Ellen Jane Bellamy spinster(34)states father as William Bellamy (Deceased), witnessed by Matthew Henry Neal.

Marriage Cert.1906, for William Bellamy (19), Father left blank, witnessed by Ellen Gard.

Birth Cert.1887,for Willie , name of mother Ellen Neal, father left blank.

Birth Cert.1877,for Florence Ellen, name of mother Ellen Bellamy , father left blank.

Birth Cert.1884,for Frederick Samuel, name of mother Ellen Bellamy formerly Bellamy, Father Samuel Bellamy.

I have found two possible leads in the 1871 census I hadn't come across before i.e.; Frederick Bellamy age 6 ,St Sidwells Exeter (b.1865).
And Frederick Bellamy age 16 St Sidwells Exeter (b.1855) problem is I am not sure how to get any further info on these entries.

The first would have made him around 13 to 15 when he fathered Maud and Beatrice hhmmm! Its possible ,could explain a few things, for e.g. at 12 he wouldn't have been the father of Florence would he ?
The second would have made him around 26 (same age as Ellen) more likely I suppose.

[Heather Positive Thinker]

How do you know either of those Freds are YOUR Fred though? What place of birth is given on their census entries.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I would like to know what condition Ellen gave when she married in 1892.

Oops, you told me that (thankyou)! So she was a spinster..........

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

There's a Frederick Bellamy b Exeter aged 27 in the Exeter Union Workhouse in 1881.

Could you please give the ref for the 6-year-old in 1871 as I can't find him.

[Heather Positive Thinker]

Id seen that Fred in the workhouse, it says he is unmarried and born Exeter.

[yogi82]

Hi everyone first of all thankyou for your help so far, i am finally on now so if there are any bits of info you need let me know.

we felt that there was a strong Possibility that the frederick in the workhouse was him but again we cant prove.

we are currently trying toget hold of the birth cert for frederick bellamy (the son) to see who his parents are

[yogi82]

I started to search Census on different sites to glean more info, trouble is i can't remember which one, but i'm beginning to think this could be a typo ! 6yrs and 16yrs ! if i find the site again I will let you know. The underlying reason for searching sites is that they all want to charge you , isn't this information free on a government site somewhere or am i being naive? We can see he was recorded in St Sidwells age 16 but no more if i could see the address I would know whether or not he is in fact our Fred has any one got access to the full census info?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

We can see he was recorded in St Sidwells age 16 but no more if i could see the address I would know whether or not he is in fact our Fred has any one got access to the full census info?

Well most of us have via Ancestry! The 1871 isn't covered on so many sites as some of the others, but I could check findmypast.....hang on.....

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Findmypast has three Freds living in Devon in 1871:

BALLAMY, Frederick W 1859 12 Newton Abbot Devonshire
BELLAMY, Frederick 1855 16 Exeter Devonshire
BELLAMY, Frederick G 1870 1 Plymouth Devonshire

Ancestry has the 1855 and 1870 ones and the other one transcribed as Frederick W Ballany.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I'm interested as to how the address will help?

In 1871 Fred b 1855 was living with his mother, Joanna, at 10 Trinity St, St Sidwell, Exeter.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Could you have looked in 1871 and 1861 and so you are looking at the same man? (aged 6 and 16)

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

In 1861 Fred's mother is Mary, b same place as Joanna was on the other census.

This is prob his birth reg:

Births Sep 1854
Bellamy Frederick Exeter 5b 91


Even if this man is the father of the Frederick Samuel in the next generation, I'm not sure how you could prove it, even less so that he's the father of the other children registered as Neal?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

By 1901 Fred is married to Sarah. This could be their marriage:

Marriages Mar 1894
Bellamy Frederick St. Thomas 5b 122 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Gregory Mary Elizabeth St. Thomas 5b 122
Gregory Mary Jane St. Thomas 5b 122
Phillips John St. Thomas 5b 122
Skinner Sarah Mary St. Thomas 5b 122 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[yogi82]

so fredrick on the 1861 census is 6 years old and his mother is mary? in st sidwell?

and fredrick on the 1871 cencus is 16 years old and his mother is joanna? in st sidwell? she is 52 as we found her listed as the only joanna bellamy this all fits in too well to be incorrect it would then make william about 27 and thats him in the workhouse then?

so are we saying that there the same person? but at some stage the mother has changed?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I woudn't go so far as to say the mother has changed just because she has gone from Mary to Joannna and changed her age a little! lol. Will have a look at 1851.......one moment please......lol

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Right......

1871 Joanna b 1819 at Maristowe, Devon. Living in Holy Trinity parish Exeter, (Sub District of St Sidwell)

1861 Mary Bellamy b 1817 at Marystoff, Devon Living in Holy Trinity parish, Exeter

1851 The husband is alive on this one, Charles Bellamy - and his wife is Anna Bellamy b 1821 Exeter. It's definitely the same family group as Emma (eldest dau) is on both 1851 and 1861 with the comment "deaf from birth" in the end column. Doesn't mean Anna/Mary/Joanna are one and the same, but I've seen more than this amount of confusion before! lol

I can't see a marriage for Charles to Mrs B. nor an obvious death for her.

[yogi82]

Thanks for that, the address places Fred at St Sidwells at the same time as Ellen (St Sidwells at the time was a maze of small courts )and this is too much of a coincedence! he could still also be our Fred in the workhouse at 27 as the dates tie up more or less.

His mother Joanna 1871 census age 52 St Sidwells, she shows up in the 1841 census in Taunton age 20 ,also 1871 census Frederick Samuel age 16 St James Taunton, ? was he recorded in two places in the same year, or was he just a visitor at one of them ?

I feel we are on to something here ! what do you think ?

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

I think the Joanna Bellamy in 1841 is likely to be unmarried. She also says she was born in Somerset! (I know that the place of birth in 1841 is often wrong, but she does look as if she's with her parents.

Other than that I think if this was my tree, I would consider looking for baptisms of the Neal/Bellamy children (not an easy task, I think) in case the vicar made a record of the father, though I've never seen one doing so as late as this!

I wouldn't be adding a father for any of these people without some proof thiough.

One things occurs to me......Did any of the Neal/Bellamy children give an occupation for their dead father (was Fred who was married to Sarah dead???) - the Fred you are looking at was an upholsterer.

[Merry Monty Montgomery]

Oooh, looks like he may have been:

Deaths Jun 1902
Bellamy Frederick 46 St Thomas 5b 24

but looking at your dates again, it wasn't soon enough, so they obviously didn't know their father (if he was the father)

The trouble is, we don't know that the mother of the children didn't make up a story about their father.

[yogi82]

This looks good except that his daughter Maud stated he was deceased on her marriage cert in 1898 ! in the same vein his son Frederick did nt state deceased on his marriage cert in 1905 ! odd