Any ideas?

[samesizedfeet]

Here we go - 1891

RG12; Piece: 3339; Folio 63; Page 36

Samuel Richard and Sarah Ellen are siblngs

[Olde Crone Holden]

Oh, what about this one:

RG12 3335 139 22

Sarah Ashworth H W 41 (name alternative is Howarth)
Emily Ashworth dau 15
John Howarth father 78

And this family is surrounded by neighbours called Woolfenden...wasn't that significant somewhere?!

Well, I think that puts Emily in the running for mummy!

OC

[~Queen.B~]

This is interesting... Good luck with it!!

[Mary from Italy]

Ooh, well done Zoe and OC.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Oh dear, in 1881, there are TWO Sarah Ashworths, same age, both with a daughter Emily also same age!

One Sarah is married, the other isn't!

The married Sarah was a Howarth before she married James Ashworth.

OC

[castanea1985]

Thanks for all your help. Gosh and so quick!!

Any more ideas would be great.

Thanks again.

[Mary from Italy]

So Sarah Ellen's mum was Rachel Howarth, and Samuel and Gertie Howarth were her brother and sister-in-law.

[Mary from Italy]

Tracey, can you check with your aunt what Gertie's surname was? And maybe her approximate age?

Have you got a birth certificate for Sarah Ellen?

[Olde Crone Holden]

Oh, gosh, I hope this is just a MASSIVE coincidence:

Gertrude Wall
to Henry J SWAIN
1906 Liverpool RO.

(Hey, why do these fascinating searches only come up after midnight?!)

OC

[castanea1985]

So Sarah Ellen's mum was Rachel Howarth, and Samuel and Gertie Howarth were her brother and sister-in-law.

Mary

I think you're right, my notes about all this were taken over the phone (my aunt lives in US) and were taken about 6/7 years ago, so are a bit sketchy. I think that Samuel and Gertie could have been the brother and sister in law. If I remember rightly he was left on the grandma's doorstep first (so Sarah and Samuel's parents), then went to Samuel and Gertie, then ended up with Arthur and Sarah, as they were in a better position financially!

So the theory about the indiscretion, doesn't really add up with Arthur Swain... could the father have been Sarah's father? Maybe?

Presumably the mother must have been called Nolan though?

Tracy x

[Mary from Italy]

(Hey, why do these fascinating searches only come up after midnight?!)

I was just thinking the same thing I should have been in bed hours ago..

And those Lancs censuses are awful to search - wherever you look you're up to your ears in Haworths, Howarths, Ashworths and the ubiquitous Holdens.

That Wall-Swain marriage is interesting.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Tracey

Mother not NECESSARILY called Nolan - Nolan might have been the father's name. Good Irish name for a lieutenant!

OC

[castanea1985]

Tracey

Mother not NECESSARILY called Nolan - Nolan might have been the father's name. Good Irish name for a lieutenant!

OC

But as he was called John Nolan - would that not 'quash' the theory about a Swain being the father?

And the other bit that I can't understand is her coming back for John. My aunt told me that he remembers her coming back for him and seeing a brother! Surely this would quash the theory about one of the Swain / Howarth ladies being the mother??

Tracy

[Mary from Italy]

I did have a look at female Nolans in Rochdale in the 1901 census; only one was born in Ireland, but she was living with her husband, and far too old to be John's mother.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Tracy

I'm working on another theory now, lol.

Presumably we can rule Gertrude out as the mother, as she was around all the time John was growing up.

But what if Henry J Swain was the father?

It just seems an incredible coincidence that TWO Gertrude Walls marry significantly linked names in this family.

Also, the fact that John was passed round the family like a parcel makes me think that he had some blood connection with this family, otherwise they would have just dumped him in the workhouse, surely.

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

Nope, incredible as it seems, it WAS just a coincidence.

A Harry Swain died in 1915. Gertrude Swain remarried the same year in Liverpool, so that lets her out of it I think.

OC

[Mary from Italy]

But as we have two marriages for a Gertrude Wall in consecutive years, and Henry J Swain didn't die in between them, presumably there were two Gertrude Walls?

[Mary from Italy]

Nope, incredible as it seems, it WAS just a coincidence.

A Harry Swain died in 1915. Gertrude Swain remarried the same year in Liverpool, so that lets her out of it I think.

Yes, I thought it seemed a bit unlikely.

[Mary from Italy]

I did wonder if John might be Gertrude's son, but there's no birth of a John Wall registered in Rochdale in 1906.

There is a John Henry Wall born in 1906 in West Derby, where Gertrude and Henry Swain were married, but I think that must be just a coincidence.

[Mary from Italy]

Samuel and Gertrude had at least 3/4 children, who may still be alive, so I won't post their names here.

Might be worth trying to find any living descendants of theirs, to see if they know anything.