Any ideas?

[Mary from Italy]

There's something that doesn't quite add up about the story.

How did he and the Swains know that the woman who turned up to claim him was actually his mother if he was left anonymously on their doorstep?

[Little Nell]

I think you may well find there are zillions of Nolans living in the Manchester area!

You could possibly find a list of lieutenants, but how you could find out which - if any - was the father I don't know.

Singers and lieutenants sound romantic and distinguished, but these are family stories for which you have no proof. The reality might be much more ordinary.

[Little Nell]

I think the Swains must have known this woman, otherwise they wouldn't have known when John's birthday was or his surname.

[castanea1985]

There's something that doesn't quite add up about the story.

How did he and the Swains know that the woman who turned up to claim him was actually his mother if he was left anonymously on their doorstep?

I don't know? I"m just going off what my aunt says, and as John Nolan was her father I"m assuming it happened?!
I suppose she learned snippets as she was growing up.
Unfortunately my dad died in 1990 (aged 55), and have only started researching John Nolan since his death.

Tracy

[castanea1985]

I think the Swains must have known this woman, otherwise they wouldn't have known when John's birthday was or his surname.

I agree. I always wondered how she knew that they were childless..
My aunt also said that his mother's name was actually written in the Swain bible, but this has long gone.
Unfortunately, I have never known any of the Swain family and of course they had no other children.
So can't follow that line up either.

Tracy

[castanea1985]

I think you may well find there are zillions of Nolans living in the Manchester area!

You could possibly find a list of lieutenants, but how you could find out which - if any - was the father I don't know.

Singers and lieutenants sound romantic and distinguished, but these are family stories for which you have no proof. The reality might be much more ordinary.

All I have to 'go on' is what my aunt has told me and the school document, which is really sad, when you think we're only talking of three generations ago.
It's a bit of a mission to try and find something 'concrete' out about my grandfather, his mother and his brother.

Tracy

[Little Nell]

She might not have needed to know they were childless, just that they would take in her baby. I think there must have been a connection as she knew they were still there when she went to get John later. In fact, John was with Sarah Swain's parents for the first few years, so I presume Sarah was still working as a winder. John's own mother was presumably too poor to keep him herself, or pay anyone else to keep him, which is why she was keen on him working for her later.

I do understand how frustrating this is. I have many unsolved and unanswered questions in my own family tree -
-great grandmother who was illegitimate and the records that might have given name of her father haven't survived
- another great-grandmother whose 2nd marriage I cannot find. Not in GRO indexes or in any of the churches I have so far searched in London (zillions more!) and relevant Register Office just referred me back to GRO.

Those are just two frustrations...

[Olde Crone Holden]

Is it possible that Arthur Swain was the father of John Nolan? As the couple were childless, his wife might have overlooked his little peccadillo.

Otherwise it is rather a complicated arrangement, isn't it...someone leaves a baby on your doorstep, but you don't turn the child over to the authorities, even though you are too poor to look after it yourself, you hand it over to your equally poor parents to bring up.

Sounds much more like a duty of obligation than a selfless act of charity!

OC

[Mary from Italy]

If it hadn't been for the story of the mother coming to claim him, I would have thought that the baby-on-doorstep story had possibly been invented to cover up an illegitimacy in the family, but the story of mother turning up doesn't sound like something you'd invent.

I've been having a look at the censuses out of interest, but they're very hard to find, apart from Arthur and Sarah Ellen in 1901. Have you had any luck?

This is presumably Arthur and Sarah Ellen's marriage:

Marriages Jun 1900
Howarth Sarah Ellen Rochdale 8e 23
Sutcliffe Emily Rochdale 8e 23
Swain Arthur Henry Rochdale 8e 23
Woolfenden Herbert Rochdale 8e 23

Are you sure Gertie's surname was Ashworth, or should it be Haworth?
Whichever it is, I can't find a marriage for a Samuel Ashworth or Haworth to a Gert*, and I can't find Sarah Ellen as a child with her parents. I was wondering if she might have had a sister whose baby John was.

[Mary from Italy]

That's a thought, OC - I hadn't thought of Arthur being the father.

And I agree, if you're going to dump a baby on a doorstep, you presumably won't choose somebody you know to be very poor.

Anyway, if the Swains knew who the mother was, why would she need to leave it on the doorstep at all?

[samesizedfeet]

Have you traced the Swains backwards and outwards to see if there's a Nolan connection at all, or to find possible young females in the family who could be the mother of the baby?

[Mary from Italy]

Tracey, have you ever tried looking at Rochdale baptisms for 1906? There may not be anything, but you never know.

[Mary from Italy]

These births may be irrelevant, but they might be worth checking out:

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1906

HAWORTH John / Castleton No 2 / Rochdale / CNO2/5/356
HOWARTH John H / Castleton No 2 / Rochdale / CNO2/5/310
HOWARTH John W / Littleborough / Rochdale / L/3/224

Lancashire Births Marriages & Deaths

[Olde Crone Holden]

Mary

Well, it would sound much nicer if you said you had found a baby on the doorstep, rather than your husband's bit of stuff had dumped HIS baby on yoiur doorstep. I would have expected her to knock on the door anyway, not leave the baby on the step.(If it was his child).

I suppose you all noticed that there was a Joseph HOLDEN in the household in 1901, LOL. (Well, on the next page, then)

OC

[Mary from Italy]

I hadn't, no

[Mary from Italy]

Nah, different household - he's living next door.

[Mary from Italy]

Whichever it is, I can't find a marriage for a Samuel Ashworth or Haworth to a Gert*

My mistake, I misread the name as Haworth instead of Howarth.

This is the only likely marriage I can find for Samuel and Gertie, but it's a bit late:

Marriages Mar 1907
HOWARTH Samuel Richard Rochdale 8e 15
Pritchard Lilly Rochdale 8e 15
SOOTHILL Harry Rochdale 8e 15
Wall Gertrude Rochdale 8e 15

[samesizedfeet]

what sort of age was Gertrude?

That's either a very late marriage for the couple after they've been together a long time or it's a 2nd marriage fro Samuel and Sarah Ellen isn't the child of Gertrude

[samesizedfeet]

have I got the wrong end of the stick?? Is Gertrude meant to be the mother of Sarah Ellen that married in 1900?

There's a birth for a Samuel Richard Howarth in Rochdale in 1872 which would mak ehim far too young to be the father of Sarah Ellen.

[samesizedfeet]

Samuel Richard Howarth's WW1 service documents are on TNA

I'm meant to be alseep as I'm up for work in four hours so I can't read them I'm afraid