Look ups offered in Alverstoke/Gosport hants

[Lleitz]

James Hoare and Ann Cave marriage

Hi,

If you have time, would you please look up a marriage between James Hoare and Ann Cave in 1815 in Alverstoke? I would really appreciate your help.

Thank you.
Lorraine

[Punchs mum]

Hi Lorraine,

Will check it out for you ASAP.

Welcome to the Forum!

Lesley

[Punchs mum]

Hi Lorraine

Have managed a quick look up for you today as I was in town.

Marriage of James Hoare and Ann Cave took place at St.Marys Alverstoke on 9/2/1815
by Banns with the consent of Wm Hoare. Witnesses were Wm Hoare and Mary Cave. It looks like both signed their names.

Hope this helps you.

Lesley

[Lleitz]

Thank you so much. That is so kind of you. Can't wait to hear what you find.

Lorraine

[Lleitz]

That is fantastic. Thank you so much.

[Lemmonaid]

Anyone need any look-ups in Alverstoke/Gosport Our local Study Centre keep Parish Records for this area on microfiche. Am able to do searches of baptisms, marriages and burial records if anyone needs anything checked out. Let me know and I will see what I can do.
Lesley.

Lemmon family marriages, Alverstoke
Hi – I am new to this forum, but if the offer still stands to do Alverstoke look-ups, it would be much appreciated. I am trying to find information concerning the Lemmon family, who appear to have married in Alverstoke, though not necessarily born there.
From FamilySearch site, I have the following two items:
Marriage 31 Dec 1815, Alverstoke – John Lemmon and Olive Nickels (or Nicols, possibly)
Marriage 16 Nov 1835, Alverstoke – Maria Lemmon and William Winsor (or Windsor)
Plus I have the marriage certificate for Elizabeth Lemmon and William Jones, for 13 April 1846 at the Parish Church, Alverstoke.
First question – which church would that be? Is it St Mary’s in all 3 cases?
Secondly, are there records of banns for any/all of these marriages, and if so, does it give another parish for either of the parties in each case?
Any information would be much appreciated, and if you need any clarification please let me know, if I can add anything I will.
Elaine (Lemmonaid)

[Punchs mum]

Welcom to FTF Lemmonaid (like your boardname!)

I can check out the Parish Records for you but pre 1837 are not likely to give much more info than you already know from Family Search. Maybe the witnesses names and whether married by banns or licence. Sometimes another parish can be mentioned. Remember Alverstoke/Gosport had a high military presence as well.

The Parish church of Alverstoke would have been St.Marys Alverstoke.

Will reply to your posting as soon as I can.

Lesley (Punchs Mum)

[Lemmonaid]

Thanks Lesley - I wasn't sure if the Gosport Record Office had records of banns for Alverstoke, I think I saw somewhere online that suggested there were banns records for those dates, but it may have been Portsmouth or Winchester that hold them; as I have been getting some useful information from banns records on my other family line in Kent, I thought it worth asking the question when I came across this forum and saw your post. Obviously anything you come up with will be useful, even if it's just to confirm the details I have.

Look forward to hearing from you,
Elaine

[Punchs mum]

Look up for Lemmonaid.

Hi Elaine,

Here's what I found for you eventually!! LOl. The marriage for Maria Lemmon and William Windsor was in 1836 not 1835. Obviously a mistranscription by Family Search!! Both of these marriages were at St.Marys Alverstoke.

William Windsor Mariner Of this Parish married
Maria Lemmon Of this Parish by Banns on 16/11/1836.

In the presence of Eliza Lee and Joseph Chubb.

William signed and Maria left her Mark X


John Lemmon Of this Parish married
Olive Nickels of this Parish by Licence with the consent of Henry Whitear. on 31/12/1815

In the presence of Henry Whitear and Sophia Wareham (looks like)

If these are your relatives and you would like photo copies of these records, let me know. Can't guarantee the quality of the print outs though.

Hope this info is of some help to you.

Lesley

[Lemmonaid]

Thank you very much Lesley, and my apologies - it looks as if I took down the wrong year from FamilySearch for Maria Lemmon's marriage. So sorry if it made your task that much more difficult.

Elizabeth Lemmon is my direct ancestor, and I obtained the 1846 certificate of her marriage to William Jones in Alverstoke almost in desperation, as they are on the 1841 census in Portsea (Portsmouth's my home town) as Jones, and had children before the marriage, so I can't understand why married in Alverstoke! But I think I am 99% sure it is the right marriage, as the witnesses were Maria and William Windsor, and Maria has been confirmed as maiden name Lemmon, so I would assume she is Elizabeth's sister. I was then able to find a Maria Windsor and her son in the same street in Portsea on 1841 census as Elizabeth and William Jones - no William Windsor with Maria, but as you've confirmed from the marriage record, he was a mariner, so it does fit that he might be away. On Elizabeth's marriage certificate father is given as John Lemmon, Labourer, and the only John Lemmon of right sort of age I could find on 1841 census (assuming he was still living) was the one in Portsea, an Ag Lab married to Olive, hence my searching for a marriage, and again finding it in Alverstoke. So, nothing to totally prove my theory, but nothing which demolishes it yet. on 1841 census John Lemmon is down as not born in Hampshire, hence my faint hope that he might be listed in banns as of another parish elsewhere, but not so. I guess couples did go back to marry where their parents married sometimes, so maybe that's why Elizabeth and Maria were married at St Mary's Alverstoke, albeit in Elizabeth's case when she and William had about 5 children!

Anyway, thanks so much for your help, it was a stroke of luck coming across the forum and your post re lookups when I was researching all this. I will take down the info, no need to photocopy, but if I come across any more Alverstoke/Gosport lookups I might need, I will get back to you (funnily enough, I do have another branch of the family who were in that area, so will revisit my info on them to see if there are any lookups needed).

Thanks once again,

Elaine

[grasshopper]

Alverstoke - James GARNER (1797 - 1860)

Hello
I wonder if you are able to help. This enquiry is not so much about Parish Records but more about local knowledge.
James GARNER married Elizabeth WINCH in 1833 at Fareham. In 1841, the family are living at Halfway House, a house and an area halfway between Gosport and Alverstoke. He’s the tenant Licenced Victualler at The White Hart; it is owned by Elizabeth HAWFORD, widow of Lieutenant William HAWFORD, RN. A pub with the same name is currently in the same location, near to where Bury Road railway station was. At the time of his death in 1860, James is the owner of the White Hart, several properties in the immediate area, including Garner Cottages, which may have built where the original Halfway House stood. In the Deaths column of the Hampshire Telegraph (Sat Nov 17th 1860), James was described as respected by all who knew him. He was interred at St Anne’s Hill; his wife who had died previously in 1845 was buried at St Mary’s.
I have not been able to find his baptism; the 1851 census quotes this as being Swaf(f)ham, Norfolk, but alas it is not there. At the time of his death, he does appear to be a respected person of the Alverstoke area, involved in hosting dinners for associations and I would be interested in any further information about him and/or the immediate area. There was a chapel opposite Garners Cottages; was he involved with this?
many thanks

[Punchs mum]

Hi Grasshopper

Welcome to FTF!

That is a bit of a challenge!! I can tell you off the top of my head though that the Halfway House was a Public House a stones throw away from The White Hart. which is as you say, is in the same location as the old White Hart but it has been rebuilt.

The Halfway House pub closed it doors in 1982 and is now a shop. Yes, it was about opposite the Union Chapel (now replaced by flats) in Stoke Road. There are still some small cottages around that area but must admit I have never heard of Garners Cottages inspite of living in Gosport all my life.

All I can offer is to visit the Study Centre and see what info I can find for you using their maps and Local History Books. I can check out the burial record of James Garner as Anns Hill cemetery records are available to view on Microfiche at the centre. There may be some info on there.

I won't be able to get to town now until next week so please bear with me!

I do have many pictorial books on Gosport amongst them photos of The old White Hart and the New one. Also, photos of the Halfway House Public house. If you are interested in some scans of these PM me privately your e mail address.

Will be in touch again so please check back occasionally on this thread.

Lesley

[Christine in Herts]

Welcome to FTF, grasshopper! I gather you've already started looking around to see what the Forum can offer - or you wouldn't have found this section!

When looking for Norfolk records, have you made use of the Family Search records now available? - there are lots of Norfolk Parish Register images online for free - though you have to browse! I found the one for Swaffham - you'd need to start somewhere around image 60 of the 147 in total for the relevant register. It's one of the mixed registers, but where the recorded events are blocked together, so that there are years of Baptisms before years of Burials. I did have a bit of a trawl through the images, but - although there are certainly GARNER events recorded - I couldn't see a baptism for James GARNER. Given the distance of Alverstoke from central Norfolk, you could well look at parishes near to Swaffham as well as the town itself. Using the OS version of Bing Maps, you can see quite a few satellite settlements around, including Cockley Cley, Castle Acre, Little/Great Dunham, North/South Pickenham, Necton...

There's a slightly possible one in Little Dunham (image 23 of 43) - but the surname looks like GARNET, and the birth/baptism is Nov 8 / Nov 10 1799, which is a bit late for your man.

Christine

[Bertie]

Hi grasshopper

Just a couple of thoughts occur to me given the interesting elements of your man....

1. Being married at age c.36 suggests a possible previous marriage - does the Fareham record indicate whether he was a bachelor or not? It might be worth looking for marriages around say 1820 or so to see if you can spot someone that might be him, and thus more information about him. What other information does the marriage record give that might help?
2. Being 'out of place' by 1833 and in the Gosport/Portsea area suggests a possible military connection. For example, he may have joined a local militia in Norfolk at a tender age (Napoleon was a big threat in those days!) and then possibly the Army or he may have enlisted with the Royal Navy or Royal Marines. Have you looked into this as a possibility?

[grasshopper]

Hello Christine, thanks for your message and your time. I have looked through the Swaffham Records (via FamilySearch) and some other villages around, so far without success. In the 1851 Census, James is recorded as being 53 years old, which if correct, gives a date of birth of 1797/8, and so the Little Dunham entry, is perhaps a little late, as you have suggested. I think that the family name here is GRUMMETT (GROMET), and that parents Thomas and Elizabeth NURSE were married on 8th April 1799 (the year of the birth). Any other suggestions greatly received. Many thanks.

[grasshopper]

Hello Bertie, Many thanks for your suggestions. James GARNER (of this parish - Fareham, abt 36 years old) and Elizabeth Mary WINCH (of Alverstoke, abt 33 years old) were described as Bachelor and Spinster, respectively, and were married by Licence. I haven't been able to find a record of the Licence. Both the witness signatures are illegible. James and Elizabeth appear to have signed their own names. If he was widowered, then there are about 80 marriages on FamilySearch for James GARNER over the potential period.
I have considered the military connection and feel that there is one, given the location. A son of James joined the Marines. There is no sign of James in the Naval records. There were two James GARNER's that were awarded the Waterloo Medal, but neither the 3rd Battalion 14th Regiment or the Royal Horse & Foot Artillary had any apparent links to Norfolk and anyway that appears to be the limit of the information with these awards. But, yes, a strong feeling of a military connection. I wonder if Fareham would be relevant?

[Bertie]

Hi grasshopper

I cannot find the marriage either in the Hampshire Allegations for Marriage Licences 1689-1837 - but I do not think it has a complete listing. Any reason they married by licence anyway, rather than by banns esp. given their ages?

I think it is somewhat encouraging to supporting an early (say) a RN or RM career that he was a Bachelor on marriage - it certainly is not unusual for someone at sea to marry in their 30s - also the son of James joining the RM perhaps adds a little extra weight in this direction.

However, the lack of an attestation document or service record is not wholly unusual - if you had the time and inclination you could (perhaps speculatively) look at the original RM ledgers [from memory Description Books?] (held at TNA) which give a complete listing of all those who entered the service giving quite a lot of detail about where born, physical details etc. including when and where born - they are listed alphabetically (i.e. all the 'G's together) and by location of where joined (i.e. Chatham, Portsmouth or Plymouth): your man may have joined a Chatham based company of the RM. But this is a bit of a long shot, and he may simply have joined the RN!

Fareham is (in my opinion - someone else might have more knowledge!) not a likely location for a mariner: too far from Alverstoke or Portsea. However, I note that Elizabeth was from Alverstoke though.

Are there any clues in his will? (I note that as late as 1864 his solicitor is still asking if anyone has claims against his estate referring to a legatee)

[Bertie]

BTW do you have / have you seen the following, listed on the Hampshire Record Office online catalogue:

FindingNo 48M74/E/T210

Title Release and covenant for production of title deed, with regards to messuage used as a public house and called the White Hart with outhouses, garden and walled piece of ground situated on the south side of the road leading from Gosport to Bury (Alverstoke)

Date 1853

Description

(i) Robert Cruickshank, Gosport, gent

(ii) James Crook the younger, auctioneer

(iii) James Garner, Alverstoke, victualler

- Recital from 1846.

Might be worth checking with them as to where the doc. is held (main location is Winchester)

[grasshopper]

Thanks for your recent response Bertie. I was hoping that there would be an explanation for the Licence within the Licence (is this the "Allegations"?). If they were normally resident in the two parishes then there would be no need for a License unless for a "rush job". I know nothing about James and Elizabeth between the marriage in 1833 and 1838, the birth of their first child at Bury Road, probably the White Hart in the local area of Halfway House (is there a clue in the time interval?). The following year,1839, the address is Halfway House, not to be confused with the pub, further along the road, called Halfway House. I will follow up your suggestion re RM ledgers, I haven't been aware of these previously. I do remember a reference to Fareham as being a residential area for officers' families. His Will doesn't provide any historical hints. He had several properties (as listed previously) and everything was split between his four children. The White Hart passed to his youngest son (John Ferris GARNER); he kept the licence but later tried to move it to a different location in Bury Road because the new bridge over the railway was diverting potential trade. The licence was subsequently transferred to his father-in-law. I have wondered about the late search for claimants, and why there had been a delay. I do have a copy of the Will and also the "Title Release" document, which doesn't appear to provide any background to the origins of James or the significance of the other individuals, including Elizabeth HAWFORD, who was the original owner of property and land around Halfway House/Hawford Lodge. Can I / I can attach these documents if wanted. The saga continues.

[grasshopper]

Apologies, James & Elizabeth married in March 1833, Anne Elizabeth was the first child, born 13th February 1834.