Gravelkind

[AbbyW]

Someone remind me what it is, something to do a bequest to the oldest son?

[Little Nell]

I googled

and found

"The main differece from feudal monarchies is the system of gravelkind, whereby everyone had an honour price (literally - face price) according to rank in society, and any fines in the totally civil law for various transgressions were meted out according to honour price."

source: Guardian Unlimited: Arts blog - books: In search of the Great British Novel

[AbbyW]

Thanks Nell,

I was thinking it had something to do will wills in Kent.

[AbbyW]

Found it, for those with in interest,

'Gavelkind' was the method of inheritance where all (male) descendants
had equal shares - as opposed to 'primogeniture', where the first-born
son got the lot (a form of 'first past the post'). In mediaeval Welsh
Law, gavelkind included illegitimate male offspring, too.

It was particular to Kent and seems very fair to me!

[Little Nell]

Ah! I was fooled by the r in your title! Glad you solved it, anyway.

As for the system, although it seems fair to you, it means that land would be divided into smaller and smaller parcels, whereas primogeniture would keep it intact as a decent estate worth more. And of course, the women don't get a look in either!

[Olde Crone Holden]

Some pundits say that the difference between primogeniture and gavelkind is what has made some nations rich and others poor.

Countries which still operate gavelkind invariably have a high proportion of poor people because the more you share out a cake, the smaller the slice until the point where each individual does not have enough land to support themselves and their family.

Incidentally, Gavelkind is a SET of laws - bloodprice is one of these laws. In fact, Gavelkind was quite lenient towards women - they could divorce their husbands for no more reason than they were fed up with them AND they could Will and inherit in their own right, even if they were married. They could also cry rape and the matter would be taken seriously. Gavelkind also operated a jury system.

A downer - every widow belonged to the King (whoever he was) and if a widow refused to marry a man that the King picked for her, she had to pay a huge fine. Nice little earner for the King.

OC

[Uncle John]

Countries which still operate gavelkind invariably have a high proportion of poor people because the more you share out a cake, the smaller the slice until the point where each individual does not have enough land to support themselves and their family.

Is this what complicates things for ex-pats buying property in continental Europe? Where one person is the ostensible owner but it turns out that every brick and blade of grass is owned by a different person.

[Olde Crone Holden]

UJ

Yes, exactly that, but they don't call it Gavelkind! It is something to do with not being able to disinherit your flesh and blood and them all having to have equal shares unto the umpteenth generation. Makes for a poor people.

OC

[Canadian Cousin]

Some pundits say that the difference between primogeniture and gavelkind is what has made some nations rich and others poor.

Countries which still operate gavelkind invariably have a high proportion of poor people because the more you share out a cake, the smaller the slice until the point where each individual does not have enough land to support themselves and their family.

Incidentally, Gavelkind is a SET of laws - bloodprice is one of these laws. In fact, Gavelkind was quite lenient towards women - they could divorce their husbands for no more reason than they were fed up with them AND they could Will and inherit in their own right, even if they were married. They could also cry rape and the matter would be taken seriously. Gavelkind also operated a jury system.

A downer - every widow belonged to the King (whoever he was) and if a widow refused to marry a man that the King picked for her, she had to pay a huge fine. Nice little earner for the King.

OC

OC -

That explanation deserves to go in the Wiki (with final comment intact).

Tim

[Olde Crone Holden]

It is also interesting that the old "strip" system of farming dates back to Danelaw and/or Gavelkind.

Fields were divided into narrow strips and each strip belonged to SOMEONE. A man might have inherited 5 strips in one field, three in another, ten in another and so on.

It was a messy and incompetent way of working and was virtually wiped out by the Enclosures Acts, which over ruled some very ancient rights indeed for poor (free) people, who had always been an annoyance to those who grudged them their ancient rights. (And their freedom, of course - people who are free cannot be bent to another's will, even that of the church)

OC

[Little Nell]

But many alleyways, roads etc follow the old field markings and in Hitchin several places/houses are named ___shot, shot being an old name for a small piece of land.

[Uncle John]

It is also interesting that the old "strip" system of farming dates back to Danelaw and/or Gavelkind.

Fields were divided into narrow strips and each strip belonged to SOMEONE. A man might have inherited 5 strips in one field, three in another, ten in another and so on.

It was a messy and incompetent way of working and was virtually wiped out by the Enclosures Acts, which over ruled some very ancient rights indeed for poor (free) people, who had always been an annoyance to those who grudged them their ancient rights. (And their freedom, of course - people who are free cannot be bent to another's will, even that of the church)

But the basic idea of strip farming was sound, apportioning fertile and infertile/boggy land equally around the farmers (I still remember my primary school history thanks to excellent teachers).

[Olde Crone Holden]

Oh yes, the basic principle was sound, but that principle was somewhat diluted after twenty generations of being handed out around the family.

Perhaps they used a bit of common sense though and said "I'll swop you my ten strips in Oxfordshire for your ten strips in Cornwall" lol.

OC