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  • #21
    Thanks for that OC - I've not seen an illegitimate birth registration with the father also present and admitting paternity.

    Libby - that's twice lately I've seen a reference to Hugh wallis second names search. I still can't work out how it's done.
    Gillian
    User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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    • #22
      Gillian...........hope this works. I'm not techno savvy at all.
      You'll see the "Middle name" bit on this page.

      Hugh Wallis's Genealogical Web Sites

      Comment


      • #23
        Thanks for that, I'll try that in a minute.

        This whole family are a pain! Thought I had just made a breakthrough, as Agnes Garioch McKenzie's death was registered by her daughter Alexanderina PATERSON in 1876.

        So, off I go to look for a marriage of Alexander McKenzie (or Garioch or Gerrie/y or Geary or Gray or Greig) to any old Paterson. Naturally, I cannot find it and I cannot find her as Paterson or anything else in 1881.

        I don't like that Dow middle name much, it's too like DON. One of my other 3 x GGMs remarried to a DON.......

        Off for another shufti at middle names this time.

        EDIT ARGGGHHH! I don't believe it! My computer is blocking this middle names site! Why? I have never had any probs with Hugh Wallis before.

        OC
        Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 23-01-08, 22:40.

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        • #24
          Thank you Libby!
          I had never spotted that Hugh Wallis page before. It will be very useful.

          OC -I've no credits left to look, but did you see the Alexandrina McKenzie marrying a Paterson in Aberdeen 1868?
          Gillian
          User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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          • #25
            OC

            Hold down your control key while you click.....That should get you through!
            Avatar....My darling mum, Irene June Robinson nee Pearson 1931-2019.

            'Take nothing on its looks, take everything on evidence. There is no better rule' Charles Dickens, Great Expectations.

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            • #26
              JG

              No, I didn't! I wonder why not (???) I will go back and have another look, thankyou.

              Chris

              I'll try that, thankyou

              I was musing in the middle of the night, as one does, WHY William and Agnes never married. They were together for at least 30 years, so it suggests that one or the other was already married. I have checked possible marriages for Agnes (none!) but without a bit more information for William, it is hopeless, there are hundreds of them.

              OC

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              • #27
                Well, if they are supposed to have got married in 1846 in Dundee, then surely it was before the start of civil registration in Scotland, so couldn't it be one of those marriages that isn't included in the OPR's? Sorry if this has already been discussed. I'm not sure if they still had those kind of marriages that I can't think of the name of then - the ones where they just basically decided to be married and so they were - someone Scottish might be able to tell me what it was called? But anyway, there are also some non - OPR marriages such as Catholic ones.
                KiteRunner

                Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

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                • #28
                  JG

                  Found it, thankyou. I must have forgotten to tick soundex when I searched for Alexanderina - she is indexed as Alexandrina, even though the cert says Alexanderina!

                  And....very interesting...Alexander Paterson's address is the same as another 2 x GGP in my line!

                  Kate

                  I think I have established that Agnes and William never married, according to the birth cert of their (5th?6th?) child in 1859. Certainly not in Dundee in 1846.Wonder why they said Dundee, though??? Perhaps they thought a "handfast" marriage was good enough.

                  OC

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                  • #29
                    Right.

                    "Irregular" marriage is the word I was looking for. OH has one in his tree but luckily it was listed in the OPR's anyway.
                    KiteRunner

                    Every five years or so I look back on my life and I have a good... laugh"
                    (Indigo Girls, "Watershed")

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      And....very interesting...Alexander Paterson's address is the same as another 2 x GGP in my line!
                      Curiouser and curiouser! Fingers crossed that it will lead to further discoveries.
                      Gillian
                      User page: http://www.familytreeforum.com/wiki/...ustGillian-117

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                      • #31
                        Yes, I think I've found the Paterson link.

                        Agnes Gerrie McKenzie (1879-1919) granddaughter of William Mckenzie and Agnes Garioch, married James MILNE Bonnyman. His address was 164 West North Street. This was the address that Alexander PATERSON gave on his marriage to Alexanderina McKenzie, in 1868.

                        (James Milne Bonnyman was born at this address and died there too)

                        Agnes died and James MILNE Bonnyman took as his second wife, Isabella Paterson, who was a young cousin of Alexander's.

                        The Paterson name previously appears, pencilled in as the possible name of one of my 6 x GGMs, married to a Milne.

                        Hum...going to have to trace the Patersons now....

                        OC

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                        • #32
                          Hi,

                          I'm a complete newbie to this, but actually found this site through a google search for James Milne Bonnyman.

                          I'm so curious to know whether you ever managed to trace the Paterson line mentioned above?

                          Isabella Paterson, James Bonnyman's second wife is a candidate/prospect/suspect, LOL, i.e. might possibly be my GGM. I found her death certificate which listed the father as Hugh Paterson and mother as Isabella Paterson (maiden name Williams? -I'm not great at reading the handwriting) deceased, but I cannot find a marriage cert, or birth certificate for an Isabella Williams (other than Isabella Anders Williams -? Anderson Williams?? in 1886 Edinburgh -which would seem be a generation later).

                          Mind you, I could be completely barking up the wrong tree. Ultimately, I'm trying to see whether James Bonnyman's second wife, Isabella Paterson, can be traced back to Forres, Morayshire, and specifically the address where my GM was born. I think Isabella was married to a William Matthew Mutch (prior to James Bonnyman), and he was from Rafford near Forres, so it seems possible???

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                          • #33
                            HappyHaggis

                            the name Mutch rings a bell with this family - let me check my notes and refresh my memory as I haven't touched this side of the family for a long time. Back later!

                            OC

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                            • #34
                              Happy Haggis

                              Right!

                              James Milne Bonnyman is my great grandfather (my mother's mother's father, ahnentafel 14) 1878-1948.

                              He married (1) - Agnes Gerrie McKenzie, see this thread! Only two known children from this marriage, a son who died as an infant in 1904, and my grandmother, born 1905. Elspeth Mearns Bonnyman (later married John Craig). There are probably more children but no one alive seems to know, or won't tell me!

                              Agnes Gerrie McKenzie Bonnyman died in 1919. James Milne Bonnyman remarried, to the divorced Isabella Mutch, nee Paterson. She was the divorced wife of William Mutch. They were married in Forres, 1914. (all this from Isabella's marriage cert to James Bonnyman).

                              Ha! I got no further than you, though - I agree his parents were Hugh Mutch etc but I don't appear to have tried to trace them on any census.

                              You have the advantage over me - I did not know that JM Bonnyman's second marriage produced any children? There is a bit of a mystery concerning this man. My grandmother - his only child - said that she was an orphan and was brought up in a dreadful children's home. the family all believed this - why not - and it was only when I started poking around that I discovered this was not true. My grandmother was born in 1905, her mother did not die until 1919 and her father (JMB) didn't die until 1948, by which time my grandmother had been married for over 20 years! Furthermore, my uncles remember visiting JMB regularly as he always gave them a sixpence out of an old leather purse he had. Very strange!

                              Now, the Mutches. I have another line of Mutches, all from the Keith Hall, Aberdeen area. My 3 x GGM on my Grandfather's side, Mary McWilliam, married a Mutch and then a Milne. There is no obvious link between the two Mutch families, but I bet they were related in some degree as it is quite an unusual name.

                              I got nowhere with the Patersons, but I may not have tried very hard as they are not my blood relations. however, as Isabella must have produced offspring, I am now interested in tracing the Patersons!

                              I hope this isn't all too confusing - this family is a complete dog's breakfast and all my Scottish relations are related to each other over and over again through various different alliances!

                              Let me know what you would like to do next and maybe we can join forces?

                              OC

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                              • #35
                                Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                It's going to take me some time to work my way through this properly but THANK YOU SO MUCH for looking back, it's interesting ;-)

                                Off the top of my head though, I think I maybe my initial post was a bit confusing. I haven't found any offspring from Isabella's marriage to James Milne Bonnyman either (not yet anyway). Sorry :(

                                My Grandmother was born in 1905 in Forres, Morayshire (illegitimate: happy to PM you her name if it helps -some living relatives are still a bit sensitive about this though, so I probably shouldn't post it on an open forum... *sigh* how times change...anyway), Mother: Isabella Paterson. Now, unfortunately there are rather lot of Isabella Patersons, even in the Morayshire area, but a lot of them were too young, possibly too old (40?, LOL, okay maybe not), or were married, which kind of narrowed it down a bit. My Mum is trying to contact the only person we know who might be able to provide a clue as to which Isabella Paterson I should be chasing (and really, if I had any sense, I'd know that I should wait for more concrete information --and stop funding SP in the meantime!) but "your" Isabella Paterson does seem to be the most likely candidate, and I just can't help myself.

                                So, IF, and it really is very big IF, my guess is right, then this is what I suspect :

                                1) I can't find (okay I'm going to call her 'our') 'our' Isabella Paterson in the Forres/Morayshire are etc. on the 1901 census or previous ones (I'm guessing she moved to the area from elsewhere). Hence, I got stuck when I first tried this years ago. Her father is Hugh Paterson and mother Isabella William (listed on 'our' Isabella Paterson's death certificate: 1930) but I can't find any evidence of her parents' marriage in Scotland. Weird.

                                2) Like you, I haven't checked thoroughly but I don't think Isabella and James Bonnyman had any children together. I'd be curious to know the date of the marriage though, so that I can cross-check this. Assuming that they didn't I think the rest is probably of limited interest to you (i.e. not blood relatives), but I'll list it anway ;-) Oh, also, do you know what Isabella's address was when she married James Bonnyman?

                                Hmm, this is a sideline too, but you mentioned, way back in your original post that Isabella and Alexander (the one who married Alexanderina) were cousins, and I'd love to know more about this if possible.....?

                                3) When Isabella (28) married William Matthew Mutch (21) (in 1914) she was living at Bethany? Cottage, North Road, Forres. WM Mutch's parents were Andrew Mutch and Helen Much (Ms Ironside ???). I'm guessing that his won't ring any bells re. your line of Mutchs, but hey, just in case! Also, I'm pretty sure that WM Mutch did remarry (LOL, they all seem to have don't they!) this time to Grace Paterson (in 1925). I haven't checked the records to be absolutely sure that it's the same WM Mutch but there is a newspaper article documenting some of the subsequent family (on the Strathspey Herald Website - Jan 2008)

                                4) I'm pretty sure that Isabella and WM Mutch did have children (one: Eva died at or soon after birth in 1914) but there are several other possibles including William Douglas (1916) and Hugh Mutch (1918 -if they'd moved to Dyke -hence my interest in her address at marriage to JMB) that I think I'd have to order extracts for to double check (so I will probably hold off until I'm more sure that I've got the right Isabella)

                                Help, my head is spinning!!!!!!!!!!!
                                I guess that my main problem (unless my Mum's contact can come up with some answers) is that I have nothing that has 'my' Isabella Paterson's d.o.b on it (my grandma's birth certificate doesn't give the mother's d.o.b) and (as she wasn't married I can't use that to I.D. her)...hmm... I don't know where else to look, but I shall have a think, and hopefully some inspiration will strike. The only other alternative seems to be to try to work back from the Alexander Paterson in Aberdeen, and see if there's a point where things just don't 'gel/fit' any more. Any suggestions welcome!

                                Thanks again OC, it's been a very very interesting first day on the FTF :-)

                                Edited to add: Eeek, I'm now looking at Isabella (Paterson, Mutch) Bonnyman's death certificate and wondering whether what I thought said Mother: Isabella Williams actually says McWilliam (you mentioned a Mary McWilliam?????) Think I need to have a break ;-)

                                HH
                                Last edited by HappyHaggis; 24-02-10, 15:20.

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                                • #36
                                  Isabella Mutch Paterson who married James Milne Bonnyman was born about 1886, (from age at marriage). They married in 1922, Isabella's parents Hugh Paterson and Isabella McWilliam (this McWilliam family occasionally app[ear as "Williams" so I reckon your Isabella williams is my Isabella McWilliam!)

                                  Let me find the addresses I have - back in a min. Yes, please, pm me the name of your grandmother - did she live with James MB and Isabella?

                                  EDIT - Isabella was of 13 Princes St Aberdeen when she married James Milne Bonnyman.

                                  OC
                                  Last edited by Olde Crone Holden; 24-02-10, 15:55. Reason: Additional info

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                                  • #37
                                    A Reverend Cattanach was Minister in Blackridge West Lothian when my wife was young, He died one night during the 1940's,
                                    WillG

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                                    • #38
                                      Will

                                      Thanks for that - I did later discover that the name Cattenach and Catto are interchangeable as far as the Scots are concerned, lol, and traced my little orphan laddie back through yet another convoluted family relationship.

                                      OC

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                                      • #39
                                        Of course, it is sheer coincidence that James Milne Bonnyman's first wife was Agnes MCKENZIE and his second wife's first husband's second wife had a son who married a MCKENZIE....isn't it.

                                        *Oooh, I do feel sick*

                                        OC

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                                        • #40
                                          Woooah, I can't even get my head around that last one. His second wife's first husband's second wife.......OMG my head hurts!

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