The winner of WDWTYA? 13th December 2007 is......

[KiteRunner]

Just to confuse the issue, there is a submitted IGI record for William Cooke born 1815 Docking, son of William Clamp and Mary!

There is also a possible submitted entry for the birth and baptism of William Cook senior at Beetley in 1789, but I wouldn't like to guess as to its accuracy (it gives the names of his parents as Robert Cook and Elizabeth Webster).

[maggie_4_7]

To get back on topic...

I think I may have found Caroline senior's father on the 1841 census. Don't know if you already have this?

HO107/782 Book 6; Civil Parish Docking; County Norfolk; Enumeration District 7; Folio 19; Page 30:
Docking, Norfolk
William Cook 53 Blacksmith Y
Mary do 51 Y
William 26 Assistant Y

And in 1851:
HO107/1827 Folio 474 Page 9
Barmer Lane, Docking, Norfolk
William Cooke Head Mar 63 Blacksmith Master Norfolk Beetly(?)
Mary Do Wife Mar 62 Do Massingham
William Do Son U 38 Pauper Do Docking Idiot

And in 1861:
RG9/1250 Folio 57 Page 18
East Street, Docking, Norfolk:
Mary Cook Head W 71 Washerwoman Norfolk Great Massingham
William Cook Son U 48 Almsman (Idiot) Norfolk Docking

In 1871 William (junior) is an inmate in the workhouse in Docking. I can't see Mary, but I can't see a death for her on FreeBMD before the one in Jun 1881 (age 90).

Yes we believe that to be Caroline's family, we did find the 1841, 1861 and 1871 but not the 1851 so thats new to me. I was trawling the 1851 Docking census last night because a search never brought up anything and I knew they must be still there in 1851 but then decided to call it day and look again tonight.

I thought these poor souls wouldn't have travelled far. Yes, it looks like poor William junior was mentally challenged as they put it now from birth. Much harsher words in those days. On the 1871 it has 'lunatic from birth' poor soul ended up there because no one left to care for him. That could be Mary's death but I had assumed she'd died before the 1871 census because William junior ended up in the Workhouse and it looks like she had taken care of him until then unless it became to much, or she was in a workhouse somewhere herself or with other family but I can't find Mary on the 1871.

xx

Maggie

[maggie_4_7]

Just to confuse the issue, there is a submitted IGI record for William Cooke born 1815 Docking, son of William Clamp and Mary!

There is also a possible submitted entry for the birth and baptism of William Cook senior at Beetley in 1789, but I wouldn't like to guess as to its accuracy (it gives the names of his parents as Robert Cook and Elizabeth Webster).

Yes we've seen both those sometimes they're more of an hiddrance those IGI entries.

But I hadn't seen the 1851 census with William Cook senior's birth place (Beetley) only the 1841 where it wasn't recorded so its possible although the entry is probably inaccurate that those details maybe a clue when we go check it out properly.

That William Clamp one is well confusing because there are a family of Clamps (horrible name) in and around Docking with all the same sort of names as the Cook family and born around the same times too. Maybe someone's confused themself and crossed over the information when they submitted it. Or the two familys are related in some way.

I suppose they were fairly all inbred up until the railways hit towns in the mid 1840's making travel a bit easier.

xx

Maggie

[maggie_4_7]

Oh and I've not found any more children for that family on the IGI that looks likely.

But I'm thinking the only reason William was still with them in 1841 was because he wasn't able to take care of himself. If they had any others they'd probably gone off and got married and maybe like our Caroline left town for London for a new life. Caroline would have been born abt 1816/17 so only a little bit younger. We figured she got out of town because she'd had an illegitmate child (Eliza) but she did have her baptised.

Oh I do have a question. What does Almsman mean. Is it that the parish would dish out money for him to remain at home, because of his obvious inability to look after himself, rather than be institutionalised because it cost more money for the Union if he was in the Workhouse rather than at home. I have heard of Alms Houses.

xx

Maggie

[maggie_4_7]

The fact that you found that 1851 census, which we couldn't find, with William Cook(e) Master Blacksmith born Beetly. We are pretty sure this is our Cooks I searched the 1861, we assumed William senior had died because we only found Mary and William junior but...

Ref:

RG9; Piece: 1244; Folio: 70B; Page: 20

William Cook aged 73 Ag Lab born in Beetley WIDOW!

What do you think?

xx

Maggie

[KiteRunner]

Ooh, I'll have to have a look at that one. There were a couple of possible deaths for him in Docking district in 1854 and 1857 but because the GRO index doesn't give age at death for those years it wasn't possible to be sure. Or should I say, to rule them out.

I was going to say, you'd better post up any more brick walls you have as it looks as if we've finished with that one, but maybe there is more to be found yet!

[maggie_4_7]

Well it was only our John and Caroline Kendall's marriage and the whereabouts of Caroline Hannah Duff nee Kendall's whereabouts after 1860's...

I can't think at the moment other than more children for William and Mary Cook!!!

Or tracking a birth entry for Sarah Kirby nee Kendall (born abt 1791 in Ashley, Northamptonshire on the IGI), we found her husband John Kirby's family.

My two cousins and I are really happy you found the 1851 census because we couldn't find that and that has confirmed William seniors birth place (perhaps) and thats given us some more info, also that you've all confirmed what we thought that John and Caroline's marriage isn't to be found on-line (we just wanted some clues to where and what year) we thought perhaps we'd missed something or were being stupid. Also confirmed all the Docking census because sometimes when you're on-line and see information you can clutch at straws so it's good to have fresh eyes and for those fresh eyes to make opinions on the information they see.

xx

Maggie

[KiteRunner]

Oh dear, I've just realised what time it is, and I'm getting my North Walshams and North Elmhams mixed up, so I must go to bed. But it could be him - I can't see an obvious one in North ELMHAM in 1851. Seems weird he would go from being a master blacksmith to being an ag lab, though? Think we really need to find his death to sort it out, but that will need either finding a burial or a will, I should think.

[maggie_4_7]

Maybe children for William and Mary Cook!!!

Or tracking a birth entry for Sarah Kirby nee Kendall (born abt 1791 in Ashley, Northamptonshire on the IGI), we found her husband John Kirby's family.

xx

Maggie

[KiteRunner]

There are a few Cook(e)s born in Docking on the 1851 census, but I think we would need access to the Docking parish registers (or William's will) to find out if they were William and Mary's children or not. As far as I can see, the only place that has online Docking PR transcriptions is FreeREG but there aren't any Cook or Cooke baptisms on there.

[maggie_4_7]

There are a few Cook(e)s born in Docking on the 1851 census, but I think we would need access to the Docking parish registers (or William's will) to find out if they were William and Mary's children or not. As far as I can see, the only place that has online Docking PR transcriptions is FreeREG but there aren't any Cook or Cooke baptisms on there.

Okay yeah thats what we thought, no worries. We'll go back to Norwich records office at least more armed this time.

Oh and I don't think we'd find any wills, well not for the Cooks anyway they just didn't have anything to leave it seems except 'US' they left us, poor things.

Sometimes this family history really depresses us!

xx

Maggie

[KiteRunner]

... but having said that, this family in 1871 caught my eye:
Docking, Norfolk
Rampant Horse - Old Workhouse Yd
George Cooke Head Mar 54 Blacksmith & Beer Seller Norfolk Docking
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 48 Do Do
Caroline Do Daur Unm 22 Nurse Do Do

Looks pretty likely, doesn't it? I'll try to follow them back and forward to see if there is anything to prove it one way or the other...

[maggie_4_7]

... but having said that, this family in 1871 caught my eye:
Docking, Norfolk
Rampant Horse - Old Workhouse Yd
George Cooke Head Mar 54 Blacksmith & Beer Seller Norfolk Docking
Elizabeth Do Wife Mar 48 Do Do
Caroline Do Daur Unm 22 Nurse Do Do

Looks pretty likely, doesn't it? I'll try to follow them back and forward to see if there is anything to prove it one way or the other...

oooh.

The Blacksmith thing is a good thing isn't it? We thought that it was good a well established trade, Master Blacksmith, well until the motors overtook the horses that is, but maybe a son! We have got stuck on William and his lot, so sad!

The name Caroline! It's a name that has lasted in our family, we never knew why but having found out about our g g grandmother we think we know why, she was such a strong person it seems. We still have Carolines in the family !!!

I'm clutching at straws again sorry...

George Cooke, SON maybe?


xx

Maggie

[KiteRunner]

I'm beginning to think they must belong to your family, Maggie, because I've found the parents in 1861 and they have two children but that Caroline from the 1871 isn't with them, nor anywhere to be found!

[KiteRunner]

Ooh, this is getting exciting! I just found that Caroline in 1861 - and she is a visitor in Pancras! (Birthplace mistranscribed as Dorking which is why she was so hard to find)

The people she is visiting are Richard Newill (I think - it's scrawled) age 40 a Coachman and his wife Anna or possibly Annie, age 42, both born Norfolk but not Docking.

[KiteRunner]

Er, and Maggie, I'm not trying to suggest anything about your family, honest, but this lot are next door to George and his family on the 1851:

Sarah Cooke Head Unmarried 30 Norfolk Docking
Emily Do Natural Daur 10 Do Do
George Do Do Son 6 Do Do
William Do Do Son 5 Do Do
Thomas Do Do Son 1 Do Do
Richard Cooke Natural Son Under 1 m Do Do
Martha Do Sister U 21 Do Do

Some of the names seem to fit, don't they? Off to do more hunting...

[KiteRunner]

Okay, I found that Sarah on the 1841 (it's her because she has baby Emily with her) and it looks as if her parents are Henry and Lydia, who are next door to William and Mary. Annoyingly enough, I can't see George anywhere on that one. But since Henry is an ag lab, I still think George is more likely to be William's son; just forget about Sarah for now!

[maggie_4_7]

Er, and Maggie, I'm not trying to suggest anything about your family, honest, but this lot are next door to George and his family on the 1851:

Sarah Cooke Head Unmarried 30 Norfolk Docking
Emily Do Natural Daur 10 Do Do
George Do Do Son 6 Do Do
William Do Do Son 5 Do Do
Thomas Do Do Son 1 Do Do
Richard Cooke Natural Son Under 1 m Do Do
Martha Do Sister U 21 Do Do

Some of the names seem to fit, don't they? Off to do more hunting...

oooer well good I hope they are our Cooks, what could you be suggesting that our girls didn't get married to have babies btw my mother wasn't married when she had me...

Probably ran in the family if only she'd known - she got it in the neck in the 1950's when she had me. I only wish she was alive today to see all this stuff on her family, she would LOVE IT and so would my Nanny.

hehe nice one

xx

Maggie

[KiteRunner]

If you want to be sure, then it looks as if George's marriage to Elizabeth was Mar 1845
Allen Elizabeth
Cooke George
Playford Elizabeth
Sands John
district Docking vol 13 p93 according to FreeBMD - I haven't checked the image. If you got the marriage cert then it would tell you if William was George's father or not (and perhaps your Caroline might turn out to be a witness, you never know!). But probably you have other certs that are higher priority.

[maggie_4_7]

If you want to be sure, then it looks as if George's marriage to Elizabeth was Mar 1845
Allen Elizabeth
Cooke George
Playford Elizabeth
Sands John
district Docking vol 13 p93 according to FreeBMD - I haven't checked the image. If you got the marriage cert then it would tell you if William was George's father or not (and perhaps your Caroline might turn out to be a witness, you never know!). But probably you have other certs that are higher priority.

I do have other certs for priority but you know its that dodgy one that always turns up trumps.

I have most certs that I need at the moment so that could be a fairly good investment. Thanks for that, we never found any of that. I'm such a sceptic I need a DNA check before I think its 'THEM'.

xx

Maggie

PS do you archive these threads or delete, because I need to keep some info that is on it and marriage cert ordered as we speak.