As much info as possible please

[Just Barbara]

ps, if any of your later relatives have a mole just there, male or female??

[vikki brace]

Sadly Barbara, none of them do, But it is still possible.

James (the man standing) had 17 children (14 survived to adulthood) so there are an awful lot of decendents

[don.t]

Goodmorning Vikki,

The man would appear to be wearing a three buttoned, double breasted frock coat with flat braided edged deep stepped lapels. The flat braid edging is copied on his breast pocket. Underneath his coat he is wearing a single breasted, narrow stepped lapelled waist coat and has his Albert connected to his third button down. On the other end of the Albert would be either his pocket watch or in some cases a cigar cutter (but more often than not it would be the watch). He is wearing his tie in the form of a small bow tie and it appears to be tied in the Batswing style.

The mother figure is wearing a bodice with leg of mutton sleeving which in this case had the puffing to the upper arm from shoulder seam to elbow and then from elbow to wrist it was formed into a tight sleeve. On the front of her bodice are four adornments in the form of rosettes with the letter W in the centre. She is holding the baby by its arm and hand so as to stop the child from moving too much and the keys would have been handed to the child to either stop it from crying or from getting bored (just think that could have been the door keys to their home). The womans hair is frizzed in the fashion of the period and is drawn up leaving the ears exposed and is formed on top of the crown.

As for the children I would suggest that the child on the left is a boy, the one in the centre a girl and as for the one on her lap I haven't a clue

The date for this photograph I would put at being between 1893 when the leg of mutton sleeving came in and 1897 when that style abruptly disappeared.

don.

[vikki brace]

Thanks for that Don, can I ask, do you think the W in the rosettes means something, Could it be mourning jewellery?

[don.t]

Hi Vikki,

I do not think that she is in mourning nor that these are pieces of mourning jewellery. Mourning jewellery, when worn, was dark and was not at all showy as these pieces are. As for the lettering in the middle of them it could stand for anything but I have to say I have never come across anything like them in a photograph before so they are a complete mystery to me in regards to their meanings.

don

[vikki brace]

Thanks for that Don, At least I can rule out the women who had recently lost their husbands

[Richard]

My first though on looking at the photo, before reading any of the comments, is these are three boys, I do not think any of them are girls.

Also the mother clearly is of some foreign origin or ancestry. I also thought Jewish. I know may be obvious, but are there any women on your tree with Jewish or non English maiden names who may fit?

[vikki brace]

Hi Richard

As far as I know there are no other races / religions in that family, infact the furthest any of the women have come from is Rutlandshire, all the rest are from Essex, London or Middlesex.

I am racking my brains trying to guess who this woman and her children can be, They are obviously related to James Haines (old man) quite closely for this style of picture.

I also have 2 wedding Photographs taken in 1903 (2 different Weddings), I have gone through them both trying to see this woman without any luck.
There are a few possiblities with the children, but none that I am sure on

[Richard]

hmm...don't know what to suggest then. Maybe the further back you go you may find there is a foriegn link and the names been anglicised at a latter date. At least that would help identify her if it were the case. I agree wish they'd thought of writing the names on them, have lots like this myself!

[vikki brace]

Thanks again Richard - I'm sure it will come out sooner or later

[yummy-mummy-amy]

just a random thought could she be a daughter-in-law of the old man - you said he had lots of children, if she's not his biological daughter it would like to the foreign look everyone is mentioning.

[Just Barbara]

My mums, mums mum, had 3 sisters, they looked astonishingly like this lady and as far as we can find out they were yorkshire on all sides back as we can find out, their surname was Elsworth and they came from Pudsey, Calverley and Tong in west yorkshire, I used to hope I had some exotic ancestry but sadly no......:o

[vikki brace]

Hi Amy

his daughter-in-laws were

Jessie Millington Hicks - b. 1849 Bethnal green, Had 2 children both girls
Jane (Aka Jenny) Smith - b.1855 Herts, Had 8 Children between 1877 & 1893 , Last 3 were 2 Girls and a Boy
Elizabeth Martha Willis - b 1863 Whitechaple, Had one Daughter
Mary (Aka Polly) Kempston b.1870 Old Ford, London, Had 2 Sons
Gertrude Lydia Lee Kempston b.1872 Bow, London Had 2 Sons
Catherine Braley b.1878 Kentish Town - No Children
Alice Anderson b.1881 Mile End, London, Had 2 girls and 2 boys but all born after James Haines had died
Nellie Elizabeth Westlake b.1885 had 4 boys all after James Haines had died

None of them seem to fit

[yummy-mummy-amy]

ok, was just a thought. i definately dont think her is her husband.

[Richard]

Jane (Aka Jenny) Smith - b.1855 Herts, Had 8 Children between 1877 & 1893 , Last 3 were 2 Girls and a Boy


In back up of my post on the other thread, any chance she could be Romany? She is the only one of his daughter in laws born outside the East End, Herts- countryside? Smith of course to this day the most common surname among Romanies.

[Olde Crone Holden]

I have just noticed that the two children dressed in velvet are wearing little caps - surely not jewish yarmulkes? The cap of the child in the centre appears to be beaded, which wouldn't fit with a jewish cap, I don't think.

I like Romany - that would fit very nicely, and account for the over elaborate but beautfiully dressed children, who have a slightly oriental look.

I think boy -girl - boy.

OC

[brenmac]

again the lady is the same one in your other thread,she has the deep set eyes. brenda xxx


also i think the man is her father has the same eyes,and it could be a christening
1 boy 2 girls.

[vikki brace]

I have just noticed that the two children dressed in velvet are wearing little caps - surely not jewish yarmulkes? The cap of the child in the centre appears to be beaded, which wouldn't fit with a jewish cap, I don't think.

I like Romany - that would fit very nicely, and account for the over elaborate but beautfiully dressed children, who have a slightly oriental look.

I think boy -girl - boy.

OC

Thanks OC

Jewish - Hardly, Strict Baptist..... And I mean very strict, James Haines the man at the back was one of the editors of Here & There a pamphlet published by the chapel at Homerton Row along with Simeon Belcher. The family remained Baptist until around 1955, when they lapsed a little

As I said on my other thread Romany would be funny as I found out yesterday that my Great Grandmothers father was a Romany...... (but on my Paternal side, this picture is from the maternal side)

I am now going through every Haines family picture to see if I can see this exotic look elsewear

[Ozibird]

Vikki, I really believe the adults are related. Their eyes are so similar. I agree that he is a generation older than the woman. He has white eyebrows which tend to go completely white for most people in their 70s.

The tartan on the younger children makes me think Victorian during the "Scottish" period, but that was in the 1850s. Too early, I think, because the extreme leg-of-mutton sleeves like those on the woman's dress were more mid-1890s.

To me the elder boy looks as if he is in a jacket & short trousers which would make him over 4 years old. Children to the age of 4 years old, of both sexes, wore dresses that ended below the knee.

They all seemed to be dressed up for something special.

Ozi.