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  • #21
    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    Gwyn
    If you look at the new GRO indexes, births are shown with either a maiden name, or a blank for a maiden name. The blank indicates there is only one surname on the certificate which in turn indicates no father's name. The old GRO indexes were compiled in a different way.
    In many cases that would be the case, but it doesn't always apply and is a basis for making incorrect assumptions.

    The blank on an entry in the GRO birth index does indicate that there is no maiden name (which GRO identify by the use of the word "formerly" before a surname) on the register entry, but it is quite possible for an entry with a blank maiden name to still have a father named on it - where unmarried parents register as joint informants for example.

    Likewise, the appearance of a maiden name in the GRO index doesn't automatically mean the child is legitimate - a married woman can register an illegitimate child if her husband is not the father, with the father's name blank (or with a different man named jointly), and her maiden name will still be shown, as of course can a widow.
    Last edited by AntonyM; 02-10-19, 08:30.
    Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
    Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by AntonyM View Post
      In many cases that would be the case, but it doesn't always apply and is a basis for making incorrect assumptions.

      The blank on an entry in the GRO birth index does indicate that there is no maiden name (which GRO identify by the use of the word "formerly" before a surname) on the register entry, but it is quite possible for an entry with a blank maiden name to still have a father named on it - where unmarried parents register as joint informants for example.

      Likewise, the appearance of a maiden name in the GRO index doesn't automatically mean the child is legitimate - a married woman can register an illegitimate child if her husband is not the father, with the father's name blank (or with a different man named jointly), and her maiden name will still be shown, as of course can a widow.
      Might this also be true where the mother's maiden name is the same as the father's surname?
      Caroline
      Caroline's Family History Pages
      Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Caroline View Post
        Might this also be true where the mother's maiden name is the same as the father's surname?
        All the above would till apply.

        The main point is that building family trees from index entries (either the "new" GRO index, or the older printed indexes) is not an exact science and always involves making assumptions that (just occasionally) may be very wrong.
        Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
        Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

        Comment


        • #24
          AntonyM

          Yes, I realise what you are saying, but if Miss Spooner went to register her child and the father did not wish his name to be on the certificate then surely that birth would appear in the new index under Spooner with the maiden name blank.

          OC

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
            AntonyM

            Yes, I realise what you are saying, but if Miss Spooner went to register her child and the father did not wish his name to be on the certificate then surely that birth would appear in the new index under Spooner with the maiden name blank.

            OC
            It could well do, which is exactly my point - but it is only one of a number of possibilities, and you can't know for certain which is the case without seeing a certificate. My post really was about the linking of a blank in the maiden name to there being no father named, which is not always the case.

            On a birth registration the father's wishes never really come into it. If the mother claims to be married she can name her "husband" as the father on the entry without him being present to agree (but she commits perjury if she knows that to be a lie). If she isn't married to the father (but could be married to someone else) then the father's name can't be entered unless he is present to jointly sign the register.
            Last edited by AntonyM; 02-10-19, 09:21.
            Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
            Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

            Comment


            • #26
              Many thanks for all the replies.I will digest them later as I have to go out this morning.I was reading about these records on the Western Front Association website and the records for each soldier are all very different apparently.
              I'll be back later.
              Jan

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by AntonyM View Post
                All the above would till apply.

                The main point is that building family trees from index entries (either the "new" GRO index, or the older printed indexes) is not an exact science and always involves making assumptions that (just occasionally) may be very wrong.
                That's what I thought. Not helped by the entry not actually being in the "new" index. I've sent for the certificate anyway.
                Caroline
                Caroline's Family History Pages
                Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

                Comment


                • #28
                  If an entry that appears in the printed index isn't to be found on the "new" GRO index, or appears differently, then that can indicate what is likely to be on the register, because the two use different indexing rules and such differences are very useful in helping to work things out.

                  What is the entry you have ordered ?
                  Last edited by AntonyM; 02-10-19, 09:41.
                  Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                  Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I wasn't suggesting the poster construct a tree using assumptions, just looking for a place to start sending for certificates. If none of the obvious ones apply (no mother's maiden name) then the search widens outwards.

                    I have to say I am struggling to envisage a scenario where a man would attend to register the birth of his illegitimate child yet would not acknowledge paternity by having his name on the certificate. In my experience, which of course is not as great as yours, when unmarried parents register the birth of their child and tell the truth, the certificate results in two entries in the (old) indexes, one in father's surname, one in mother's surname.

                    OC

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by teasie View Post
                      The one in 1913 looks interesting. Over 100 years so should be OK to post

                      SPOONER, GERALD EDWARD (no mmn) GRO Reference: 1913 M Quarter in WALSINGHAM Volume 04B Page 451

                      Hindringham is in the Walsingham RD.

                      It looks like Gerald reversed his forenames by 1939
                      There is also a Dorothy May 2 years laster, less likely I guess.

                      I assume that the red writing means that is was a later addition, so probably not mentioned elsewhere on military records. A lot of the records have family information.

                      Can you post a link to the banns, maybe someone can find more on them. I assume that George stated he was a bachelor on his marriage?
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                        I have to say I am struggling to envisage a scenario where a man would attend to register the birth of his illegitimate child yet would not acknowledge paternity by having his name on the certificate.
                        So would I ...not sure I suggested that, although I did once have a father who attended with his partner and was very reluctant to sign (when the legal side of parental responsibility was explained to him) although he did in the end !

                        Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
                        In my experience, which of course is not as great as yours, when unmarried parents register the birth of their child and tell the truth, the certificate results in two entries in the (old) indexes, one in father's surname, one in mother's surname.
                        It does - but not in the GRO on-line index, where it would only appear under the father's name. Or at least so it appears - I did ask GRO to supply a copy of the exact indexing and transcription rules that were followed when the digitisation work was done ( some years ago by a 3rd party external supplier), and they were unable to track a copy down.
                        Retired professional researcher, and ex- deputy registrar, now based in Worcestershire. Happy to give any help or advice I can ( especially on matters of civil registration) - contact via PM or my website www.chalfontresearch.co.uk
                        Follow me on Twittter @ChalfontR

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Dorothy May might actually be a better candidate, as she was born 1915 and the banns were called 1914 - perhaps she was the reason for the wedding that never was. Her DoB seems to be 13 Feb 1915.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            wrong!
                            Last edited by cbcarolyn; 02-10-19, 10:32.
                            Carolyn
                            Family Tree site

                            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Mary Ann Spooner b 1888 Hindringham was a servant in Wood Green in 1911

                              She is with her brother Samuel on 1939 Register Walsingham both single.

                              Hindringham Banns - only ref to them I can find:

                              This website is for sale! oldshuck.info is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, oldshuck.info has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!
                              Kat

                              My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Do you have George in East Barnet or near on any census? Where was he born?
                                I can see Wood Green is very close to East Barnet - about 4 miles
                                Last edited by Katarzyna; 02-10-19, 11:35.
                                Kat

                                My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Teasie - post #32. Did you notice there are two other births on the same page with mother's maiden name Spooner? Different surnames though - odd coincidence?

                                  OC

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by AntonyM View Post
                                    If an entry that appears in the printed index isn't to be found on the "new" GRO index, or appears differently, then that can indicate what is likely to be on the register, because the two use different indexing rules and such differences are very useful in helping to work things out.

                                    What is the entry you have ordered ?
                                    Charles Mills Hart
                                    Worthing
                                    Q3
                                    Volume 7
                                    Page 552



                                    His mother's maiden name is Hart. Parents, paternal first cousins, were married in Aldershot in 1831. He is the youngest of 5 and the only one who appears to have a birth registration - 2 too early baptised in Upper Beeding, 2 not registered, born Arundel according to census returns and one of those appears not to have been baptised either. Charles was baptised in Littlehampton. They're distant twigs but I was wondering why no maiden name was showing so wanted to find out!!
                                    Caroline
                                    Caroline's Family History Pages
                                    Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by teasie View Post
                                      Dorothy May might actually be a better candidate, as she was born 1915 and the banns were called 1914 - perhaps she was the reason for the wedding that never was. Her DoB seems to be 13 Feb 1915.
                                      Where did you find this DOB?
                                      I can see 2 possible candidates on the 1939 Register for March qtr 1915:
                                      Dorothy Spooner in Kent, single, Hospital Domestic duties 23 Jan 1915 later Hopson
                                      Dorothy May Spooner in Birmingham, single, Domestic Servant 9 Jan 1915 later Merchel

                                      Kat

                                      My avatar is my mother 1921 - 2012

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        It was on the FMP link post 19, it seems easier to look on there not sure how reliable it is by putting in the mothers name and surname, but is quicker than trawling through GRO
                                        here it is on GRO
                                        SPOONER, DOROTHY MAY -
                                        GRO Reference: 1915 M Quarter in WALSINGHAM Volume 04B Page 471

                                        I have seen both those census, but wasn't sure if I was even on the right family Is Barnet close to Wood Green, couldn't decide.
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                                          Mary Ann Spooner b 1888 Hindringham was a servant in Wood Green in 1911

                                          She is with her brother Samuel on 1939 Register Walsingham both single.

                                          Hindringham Banns - only ref to them I can find:

                                          http://www.oldshuck.info/pdf/HINDRIN..._1913-1959.pdf
                                          Kat - sorry ignore previous post - misread yours doh

                                          I have this census




                                          not sure if they are the right ones
                                          Last edited by cbcarolyn; 02-10-19, 13:08.
                                          Carolyn
                                          Family Tree site

                                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                          Comment

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