Chapmans and Illegitimacy

[MJLCarr]

Well, you are born where you are born, lol. Maybe she went into labour at a friend's s house, or maybe the friend's house was a better place to give birth. Do you have a house number?

Poor people moved a lot, either because they were evicted or because they couldn't pay the rent so.just did a moonlight flit. They also moved to better or worse accommodation as their income fluctuated or their needs changed.

OC

Aha so true! According to the certificate her address is No.97 Choumert Road and she gave birth at No.39 Sandison Street.

[teasie]

The family certainly had a lot of connections to Canada. I’ve very briefly looked at Elizabeth Mary Chapman, who was on the 1881 with Agnes, Eliza & parents as Elizabeth M Gainey (Elizabeth Mary Chapman m David Gainey 1874, so I assume this is her. A David Gainey died in 1884).

In 1888 she married George Frederick Ridge, and in 1891 they are in Montpelier Road, Peckham with several children, including George A Gainey aged 16, from Elizabeth’s first marriage. The youngest child is Fergus aged 1 (Fergus Frederick Ridge), and following him quickly brings us to the entire Ridge family in Manitoba, Winnipeg by 1906, immigration year 1903.

I think this may need a few certificates – especially Agnes’s second marriage – and possibly a separate tree plotting out to see if Alice pops up anywhere, perhaps as a witness to a marriage.

[cbcarolyn]

No Alice or Frank/Percy in Canada? It would be nice to see her over there too

[MJLCarr]

I might be being a bit thick here but I can find neither 28 Stafford Street nor 97 Choumert Road on electoral registers. Trying to find these addresses on any Census is also like looking for a needle in a haystack. Can anyone please find them or please tell me what I could try to do to see whether one of these addresses potentially housed Alice's man? I also found one workhouse record for an Alice Chapman but I think Ancestry has mislabelled it.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll? indiv=1&dbid=60391&h=6529624&tid=86670011&pid=4321 19121131&usePUB=true&_phsrc=OXz15819&_phstart=succ essSource

Once again thank you all for your help. I genuinely couldn't have gotten this far in solving the mystery without your help!

[cbcarolyn]

Addresses on census are not always easy. 1911 and 1901 are more searchable on ancestry using the keyword box, and tick exact match, I often do a "google" and stumble upon links that way, to adresses

Not all reg of electors are on there, I think Surrey are a bit thin on the ground. And not everyone could vote, you had to be a property owner, so poorer areas won't be on there I would guess. Not sure of the dates of reform.

I am off now, but can have a look much later tomorrow.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Women got the vote finally in 1928. Before that they had to be a property owner or a "forty shilling freeholder" so it is doubtful that any of the women in your searches would be on the electoral register.

Have you looked at newspapers to see if any of your names crop up?

OC

[teasie]

Its much easier to search addresses on FMP or the Genealogist. I assume you’re interested in the years close to Henry’s birth.

1881
Choumert Road only goes up to No. 78
28 Stafford Street – John & Ann Donovan, Michael & Margaret McCarthy & children

1891
97 Choumert Road – James & Maria O’Mara & daughter Nora, plus Ada Toby 21 b Egypt
28 Stafford Street – Caroline Fordham 68 widow, and Mary Clark, widow, Arthur Clark son 24, Charles Brown, 36, Friend.

As mentioned on an earlier post, the workhouse & guardian records for Camberwell are at London Metropolitan Archives. They don't appear to have been digitised on Ancestry.

[teasie]

I also checked 1901 just for completeness:

97 Choumert Road: Ada M Brown 55 plus 4 daughters & 1 son (aged 16)

28 Stafford Street is full to the brim!!!
William & Alice Howell & 7 children (aged 1-12)
Thomas & Matilda Spain & 3 children (aged 1-7)
William & Emily Jones & 3 children (aged 1-5)

[MJLCarr]

I know it's a bit cheeky to ask but does anyone have Ancestry world? A few documents from the Canadian CEF personnel files have cropped up for Frank Percival and I dont have access to them. They are from:

Canada, WWI CEF Personnel Files, 1914-1918
Canada, WWI CEF Attestation Papers, 1914-1918

[Katarzyna]

Both transcriptions give the same information. Is this your Frank? If so I can send the other info.

Frank Percival

23 Jun 1890

Cheshire, England

Sarah Ann Percival

757158

He is not married : Sarah is NOK

Attestation date 16 Oct 1915

[teasie]

You don't need Ancestry for Canadian WW1 files, they're free to search & download on the Canadian Archives site:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/search.aspx

I already checked a few days ago and didn't see him, but no harm in re-checking in case I missed him

[teasie]

Actually, looking again I was filtering with born in England, which doesn't seem to work properly, so I'll re-check too.

[Katarzyna]

Yes, he is there too and a sad end.

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=563925

Click on the Digitised service file for all 36 pages.

[teasie]

Katarzyna, we're looking for Frank Percival CHAPMAN.

I think the man that may have come up in your Ancestry search is Frank Chapman 256637 born Peckham. His DoB is given as 22/06/1889 and later 22/01/1889, but the only relative mentioned is his friend (later wife) Hilda May Rooney.

[teasie]

Katarzyna, we're looking for Frank Percival CHAPMAN.

I think the man that may have come up in your Ancestry search is Frank Chapman 256637 born Peckham. His DoB is given as 22/06/1889 and later 22/01/1889, but the only relative mentioned is his friend (later wife) Hilda May Rooney.

The 1921 census with Hilda in Saskatchewan shows that he arrived in Canada 1900, so that broadly fits with the Barnardo's record. Could this be the breakthrough?

[teasie]

Aargh! Saskatchewan marriages aren't online yet, and deaths are only available up to 1917

http://genealogy.ehealthsask.ca/vsgs_srch.aspx

[teasie]

I know the age is way out, but I'm wondering if this could be him? Hilda May Roney (not Rooney) was born c1893, which matches Hilda May Chapman in the same cemetery, and there seems to be an obituary on Newspapers.Com (which I don't have access to) saying she was the widow of Francis P, who died in 1970, which marches this headstone.

Hilda May Chapman: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...da-may-chapman
Francis Percival Chapman: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/154653418

[teasie]

Hmm the only problem with those deaths (apart from the age) is no mention of Phylis, who was on the 1921 census. More work needed methinks!

[cbcarolyn]

he could have still gone with mother as we can't find her either? I don't have WW ancestry so haven't searched any records, did notice some census records, but by 1921 Sarah could have even married.

Hadn't thought that there were free records out there.

[cbcarolyn]

...that should say mother Alice